The Hidden Cost of Poor Company Culture with Cathy Christen – EP 311

Justin Donald: What's up, Cathy? Good to have you on the show.

Cathy Christen: Hello, hello. Excited to be here.

Justin Donald: Well, it's always a pleasure when I get a chance to feature my friends on the show. In our case, we've been friends for over 20 years now, so, yeah. I know you as someone brand new in one of the businesses that we were in together, and I've gotten a chance to watch you as you've kind of honed your craft and grown up as a very successful and strong female in the business space. So, I'm excited to tell your story. So, how did we get here? I mean, you've spent 20-plus years, 23 years building teams, teaching culture, holding teams and groups accountable. So, how did we get to the point here where you're now an author writing a book about how to do that, which, by the way, I bought, I own. Congratulations on the huge launch week. But this is big. This is super exciting.

Cathy Christen: You know, this is such a fun question, Justin. I was hoping you would ask because I was thinking about this. Someone asked me the other day, and I said, "You know, the irony of it is that what got me here was actually a conversation that you and I had in Las Vegas as we were checking into the Bellagio, like, two decades ago." But we had just come off one of the best years in the company's history. We'd done very well, and by the month of August we had broken the all-time national record, and I remember feeling so just frustrated with my life. I was unhealthy, I was lonely, I had pushed so many people away, just like had become this absolute workaholic trying to hit all these milestones and build the business.

And in that process, I felt like I really lost myself. And the reason why I had become an entrepreneur to have this freedom, this time freedom, was nonexistent. And I remember thinking to myself that August, like, I'm ready to scale the business to the next level, but like I don't have fumes left in me, right? And so, we were a couple million dollars in sales that year, but I was like, how do we double? Like, there are literally no more hours in the day. I don't know what else to do. And I was really feeling frustrated. And I think at that time in my... Not I think, I know that at that time in my business, I was the hero founder, right? Where it's like everything, like I wanted to be the hero, you know?

And I joked around. I was speaking to someone recently, and we were talking about the book, and I said, "I think there are really three founder modes, and I've lived all three of them. And that we know the one you want to be in is the architect founder. But I'm not going to lie. When in my 20s, and I don't know if you experienced this, I kind of liked being the hero. I liked answering all the questions. I liked that everyone needed me. And five years in, I was like, "Ugh, this is not good," right? Like, this is not fun. And so, I remember that year when we were in Las Vegas. And I remember it clearly. You were so tan. You looked so refreshed. And I looked sick. I looked like I just came out of a hospital, malnourished. Like I was so unhealthy.

And you looked over at me, and I'm like, "How is this man tanner than me right now? I am Puerto Rican." But you said, "Hey, congratulations, Cathy. You've become the best manager in our company's history. Keep it up. You're going to burn yourself to the ground." And those words like haunted me that whole week. And at first I was like, "What do you mean?" You know, I wanted to be defensive, but really I love you and have always appreciated your mentorship, but I let that sink in, and I was like, "Huh.” And one of the things you mentioned was, hands down, you've become the best at X, Y, Z, but here's one area that you should actually want to be the best in and take pride in is be the best developer of people, right?

Be the best at multiplying yourself. He's like, "If you focus on that, your life will change." And I remember taking that challenge on, right? And really starting to think about what the business looked like and saying, okay, if I'm going to architecture what my business looks like, what comes to me? What's happening, like how many people report to me? And then what are my department heads, and who's in charge of what? And I remember going through that pro-, and it was life-changing. I mean, the next year I think we traveled like four or five months of that year, and the next year we traveled about six months out of the year, almost every year after that, while continuing to grow our business.

And so, I think that was the first step in me seeing the impact that having the right systems, having the culture, having alignment and leadership where they all knew where they were going, especially when I was gone and I was not present, that they knew exactly what was happening. But also, the leadership pipeline, which I experienced that next year, where I was not focusing on that, and all of a sudden I had an exodus of top people, and oof, that hurt a lot, you know? And later realizing, like, "Holy crap, I'm not really good at empowering people. I say that I am, and I want them to do this, but I micromanage, I veto decisions they make, and it's like my way or the highway," right?

And again, this is 20 years ago, but just realizing, like, wow, there are some things that really need to change if I'm going to really build leaders, right? And that's really my passion is in people, and the communication, and the integration. And I think that in the world we're in now, holy moly, with all the AI and everything coming in, which is unbelievable, I think it's an even more important that we're really looking at people and where they're at, right? And that we're... Yes, technology's unbelievable, and it scales output like, I mean, it's unbelievable. But I also really care about what technology can't replace: the trust, the belonging, the leadership, and judgment to decide, like, what matters.

And so, that's really where we've gotten here, and that's where this book came from, me kind of reliving going from hero back then to then becoming an architect founder to then, during, after COVID and having kids, which I had planned on being away for a while. Really, I didn't realize that I had become an absent founder. We had over 16 years of SOPs lost with a computer accident back then. We just had another one with my two-year-old. But I had lost a lot of information that wasn't backed up properly, and I had an operator at that time that I was like, "Oh, she's got enough. She's got this." And I realized when I jumped back in last year after my daughter turned one, like, oh my gosh, like, what have I done, right?

I thought they had more than they had. They didn't have the right systems. I wasn't following up on certain things, and I really had to jump back and sit down and go, "Okay, what made us great, and what has helped so many, I mean, hundreds of companies we've worked with now?" and really sit down to write this book as a reminder to myself and a resource for others to have as well.

Justin Donald: Well, it's a great story, and I love that it kind of just stuck in your mind. Like, it probably, like, a pesky thing that you couldn't shake, but I've had so many mentors over the years that have said things, and it's like, when you can't shake it, there's probably something real you need to do about it. And so, it's fun hearing that. I remember that moment. I remember, it was at check-in…

Cathy Christen: At the Bellagio.

Justin Donald: In the check-in line at the Bellagio. So, love just remembering that moment in life and even seeing how far you've come.

Cathy Christen: I mean, it was life-changing.

Justin Donald: Yeah, that's cool. Well, it's an honor to be part of your story, and I love that we have a friendship where I can speak freely and share these things that I've learned, because I've had some great mentors in my life, too, and I feel super blessed. So, really, really cool to see that full cycle now. So, you made a really important point that I don't want it to get lost, but I also kind of want to double down on it. Because your team, so, a couple of different things here. Number one, you talked about people, and you talked about systems. I think both are really important. Culture, I think, sits on top of that, and often when you're in meetings, people will agree with you because you're the boss, you're the founder, you're the decision-maker.

But that doesn't mean that they're going to execute as cleanly or smoothly or even at all on what you talked about. So, how can a founder tell the difference between a team that's genuinely, like, they genuinely understand and are committed to what we've discussed or cultural shifts, versus simply just agreeing at the meeting? Being agreeable, nodding, smiling, and then going back and doing their thing that has nothing to do with what you just discussed.

Cathy Christen: Yes, absolutely. I think it's so, fu- and I mean, you know this in business too, sometimes it's just the little things that make such a big difference, right? And I think that it's as simple as a question where a leader, a founder, can ask their leadership team, or a key leadership role, a C-level exec is asking their team members, like, "What is our number one priority right now? And what are we putting on hold to make that happen?" and finding that out. I shared recently with somebody I was talking to them about a time I had. I remember in 2012, I had probably one of the most exceptional leadership teams. They were so talented. I mean, I was projecting, like, some crazy growth numbers based on the group that we had.

And I remember being in meetings, and everyone was like, "Oh yeah, they're all agreeing. All right, let's go. Let's do this." But what I realized is people were working in silos. People were working on other things, and there wasn't really clarity. And when I talked to them and asked about priorities, one, they all had interpreted what I had said that they agreed upon, right? It was interpreted differently. And so, they weren't aligned. And so, they weren't leaving with the same understanding of what matters, of who owns what, and what happens next. And so, something that we started incorporating in our meetings was making sure to have people explain their commitment before they left, right?

So, before leaving a meeting, asking each leader, "Okay, what are you taking ownership of? By when is this happening? And what do you need from others?" And something that actually took it to the next level, too, was being able to invite concerns before actually closing, right? Asking something like, "Hey, Justin, what could prevent this from working that maybe we haven't addressed yet?" And giving people room to challenge that plan, to make sure that they were feeling confident, they had a plan, and they could go out and get it done.

Justin Donald: So, great info there. It just helps me realize and remember, like, some of the key things that I think about when I look to hire someone. So, first and foremost, early in my day, running businesses, starting, buying, just being in the realm of being a founder, being a business owner, a lot of it was me, and it was on my back, and I was the operator. And yeah, maybe there were times that I enjoyed being the hero. Actually, I know there were where it's like the buck stops with me, and that's awesome. But what I noticed is I couldn't do that well with more than one business. I couldn't do that well at scale consistently all the time, especially when things in personal life get crazy, or things in the business life get crazy.

And so, I learned early days the importance of having an operator. And I've done this. So, I've got a rule now that I won't buy a new business unless I have the operator ready to take that over. Like, I don't even want to accidentally become the operator again, okay? So, this is really important to me. But you said something that triggered this. So, I remember one year, I had an operator that should have killed it. On paper, this was the best person that I've ever had to run a team. He was charismatic. He was very attractive. He was fit. He could just take ownership of whatever it was. Like, he was a workhorse. But results really were awful. We got way behind our goals. We got way behind even past performance.

And it wasn't until later on where I started hearing some rumblings like, "This guy isn't treating me well. This guy doesn't listen." And there was a total dysfunction with the team. People's voices weren't being heard. There was no cooperation. It was kind of like a dictator barking his orders. There wasn't a lot of appreciation given. And it's interesting, because this guy, when he was at his best, was all of that. But in a stressful situation, you're behind where you want to be. You're not sleeping as much as you want to sleep. In an adverse scenario, this guy was a total train wreck and really not who you wanted to be running it. And I remember this because this should have been the best team ever. This should've been the best leader. On paper, they were going to destroy it.

Like, I was so confident, I was so excited, but I learned a lot that year. And even in the following, when I replaced him and we pivoted to someone else, I remember thinking, "This guy is nowhere close to as strong. He's the best option that I have right now. I kind of just need to put this into place because I need someone. It can't be me." And we ended up doing really well because he was very good with the team. He was very good at including people, hearing their voices, being collaborative, also delegating. He didn't have to be the hero. And they had totally polar opposite personalities. He was actually shy and quiet, and so whenever he needed some sort of motivational person, he would just pluck one of the other assistants, and that person was it, because he knew he didn't have that.

But at times, like, he could muster up the courage to do whatever he needed to do. So, I share all this because in that moment, I remember having this list. I had this criteria. It was like, "Okay, I'm going to bring on someone to run. This is a business operator that's going to run my business. What do I need? Well, they've got to be trustworthy. They've got to have a great work ethic. They've got to care about the success of the team as much or more than I do. They've got to be, I mean, I literally have this list written down. Like, I could pull it up. So, I talked about trust. I talked about honesty. Oh, integrity at the highest level. I mean, I just need to know they're going to do the right thing.

But one of the things that I learned with one other manager is that I just didn't like working with them. And so, they had all of that, but I did not want to be in the room. Like, I did not want to be around this person. I had a hard time teaching and coaching this person. And that was another one I had to list later. It's like, "Oh, I have to enjoy mentoring them.” That is a huge thing. So, you talking about teams and culture and everything here, like, I love hearing this because this has played such a role in my life, with who I've selected for different positions, different operators, different businesses.

Cathy Christen: I mean, it's so huge. And I mean, it's part of that I talk about the invisible friction with culture. Like, I like to look at my book as like a culture operating system, but it's something where you don't see it on a P&L. You don't see it, but we know the impact that it has, right? Like, the first guy you were speaking of, I mean, phenomenal on paper, where, like, this guy has the it factor. He's got this, he's got that, but he wasn't feeling good. He wasn't feeling connected. Maybe he wasn't feeling appreciated, who knows? And because of harboring maybe some resentment or frustration or just not feeling... And by the way, this, oh my gosh, I had a very similar story that happened to me.

I remember back in 2008, and it cost me eight people in our leadership pipeline. We were grooming a group of 15 people to open new franchises the next year for our company. And over half were gone, like overnight, because all of a sudden, this person who loved me, had worked with me for a year, was like, I mean, he was just incredible, didn't feel good, you know? He wasn't feeling like he wasn't feeling valued. He wasn't feeling connected. And I'm like, "This is business. Let's go." But we can't forget that we're not working with robots, which we will be, and we are a little bit now. But when we're working with our humans, they have real feelings. They also want to feel significant. They want to feel appreciated. They want to feel valued. They want to feel like they're actually contributing.

And I think that sometimes we forget about that as leaders because we're in the go, go, go, and we're getting stuff done. I know I sure as heck have, you know? And I'm just like pointing to numbers and things we need to do, and I forget, oh my gosh, they're human beings too. And I remember I had a mentor back in my early years who said to me, when I was going through this frustrating time, I'm like, "I don't know what I did. I don't know what happened. Like, I thought everything was great." And he said, "Have everyone take the love languages test." I was like, "What?" I'm like, "We're not getting married." And he's like, "Have everyone take the love language test. It's going to tell you a lot."

And it was so eye-opening to see how people felt loved or appreciated. And for a lot of my guys, it was quality time. And let me tell you, that's the lowest on my totem pole. So, I'm an acts of service, and I'm a gift person, you know? And it was really wild to see that. And it was like the ones that still felt super connected were very similar language. And so, that helped me kind of unlock a different level as a leader to go, "If I want to develop more leaders, do I know my people? Do I know how they feel appreciated? Do I know how to empower them?” I think a lot of people, too, sometimes when they think about empowerment, they just think delegation. And I'm like, "Delegation isn't necessarily empowerment.” Because, like, do they actually feel they can make decisions? Do they have the resources and know-how? Do they have the confidence to be like, "Okay"?

And also knowing that if they messed up, like there's a little cushion where they're not going to get completely chewed out, you know? I was talking to one of my old managers that worked with me for years, and he's out working in a company, and he's like, "I loved it at first and all," he's like, "but the culture sucks, Cat. Like, I'm about to leave, and they don't know it yet, and I'm one of their biggest producers." He's like, "I made a mistake a couple of weeks ago. I know I made a mistake, and I owned up to it. 'Hey, I really messed this up with one of our accounts.' And I gave them a plan of like what I was willing to do to fix it, right? And they chewed me out. I mean, chewed me out. And not one-on-one, in front of everybody."

Justin Donald: That's the worst.

Cathy Christen: And then the guy later takes him aside and says, "You know why I had to do that? I had to make an example," right? And I was like, "Ugh." I'm like, "That is just not..." I'm like, "And now you have..." And I'm thinking to myself, "This guy has no idea what he's about to lose." One of the greatest managers I have ever worked with is about to walk out, and the guy's thinking, "I taught you a lesson. Now you're going to do better." And he's like, "Screw y'all. Like, I'm going somewhere where people actually value my work." And yes, we are humans, and we might make a mistake, but how do we handle those mistakes as leaders when those happen, right? So, anyway, I'm like, you're sharing that story. I'm triggering so many things.

I'm like, oh my gosh, like, I've lived all sides of this. And again, when I talk sometimes, I remember for years I didn't want to be known, like, people would label me like the culture queen, or I was thinking, like, long-term, is that I'm like, “I don't want to be known for that because it's such a foo-foo thing.” And that was actually one of the things in the book that I was so excited. We like put this culture cost calculator, because I kept hearing, "Oh yeah, culture. Yeah, yeah. Well, whatever," you know? And it's, "We got to prioritize spending on this and this and that." And I'm like, "Yes, and," you know, this is your biggest amplifier when people feel good, and things are grooving, and systems are going, and people are trusting each other and working together, and holy crap, you move further faster together.

Or it's one of your biggest stinking taxes because it's invisible friction, and you're like, "Why isn't this going?" And maybe people are working in silos, or people aren't trusting, or they're negatively talking to other managers, and maybe you have some top people leave. And now, shoot, what does that cost you? Replacing those leaders, right?

Justin Donald: Well, we definitely need to get into culture. I decided to look up this document that I created. This is a long time ago. I mean, this document is something I've used for, for sure, one decade, probably closer to two decades. And it's the 10 qualities that I look for in an operating partner. Number one is incredible work ethic. Number two, takes initiative at a high level. I don't want to micromanage, and that's also just not how I like building organizations anyway. I think it's better not to. Number three is resourcefulness. I just want people that can find a way. So, they're solution-oriented. Number four is a high achievement drive. I like people that are self-motivated. Number five is growth-oriented, so that abundant mindset that people have. I need that.

Number six is loyal to me, and to really just keep me in the loop on everything that's happening, in and around the business. I just need to know what's going on if I'm going to be able to make the right decisions. Number seven is honesty and integrity. I need trustworthy partners. Number eight is that they care about the success of the team and the business as much as me, if not more than me. Number nine, leadership qualities that others want to follow. And then number 10 must be, so this is one that I added because I used to only have nine, so I added this one per our earlier conversation. Must be someone I enjoy spending time with and working with, or I'll dread my time in business.

Cathy Christen: Yeah. That's so good, Justin. So good.

Justin Donald: Well, maybe I'll…

Cathy Christen: Hopefully, everybody got that.

Justin Donald: Maybe I'll remember to share this in the notes. I actually haven't gone over this before with anyone outside the mastermind. But I love teaching that, and it's funny. I mean, that's a throwback.

Cathy Christen: It's huge.

Justin Donald: And that has guided a lot of very good hires for me.

Cathy Christen: Yeah. I mean, it's a game changer, too, when you have that. And so, I think, and for anyone listening too, I mean, that's just so good. And I remember getting that from you before, too. It's like anytime you're looking at something, or you're looking at a particular hire, whatever the hire is, what do they need to know how to do, right? What are the skill sets needed? What's the personality type? But then, having those specific things that you need for that role. Because I remember, too, hiring somebody for an operator role where I was like, "Oh, they've got all these things you just talked about," but how their inner wiring, when we did a pers- They were more data-detail-oriented. They were doing things like that, where they were somebody that just needed to be chatting with people all day.

And when I put them as an operator, like, I realized, oh my gosh, like, they do not like a lot of the detail-oriented things, and I was getting so frustrated with this person. And it was a demote, but I said, "Hey, how about if we move you to a client acquisition or retention, or on a recruitment front, and being one of our head recruiters?" And she was over the moon and thrived when we moved her there. And so, I remember grabbing that from you. But just being really mindful as upper-level management when we're hiring, like, do you know what you want in that role? Because sometimes it's a great person, but a great person in the wrong role, disastrous for both parties, right?

Justin Donald: Totally.

Cathy Christen: So, thank you for that.

Justin Donald: Well, thank you for sharing that. So cool to hear just some of the takeaways that you've had over the years. You talked about the culture calculator. So, what are some subtle signs that a company's culture may be costing the business money, costing them money, costing them growth? I'm just curious.

Cathy Christen: Well, I think the interesting thing, yeah, with culture, it's so hard sometimes. One of the things you mentioned in your 10 things, which is so great, is that they keep you posted on what's happening in the business, right? I used to call that, like, they need to be my eyes and ears in the company, right? Because not everyone's going to tell the owner, everybody, or the founder. They're not going to tell them how they really feel. They might nod and be like, "Oh, this is great," and behind the scenes they're like, "This is crap." Or like, "I don't know how we're going to do this or implement this," which side note, for those running great meetings for teams, include people in decision-making.

Like, instead of in my early years I'd be like, "This is the solution. This is what we're going to do. This is how we're going to solve this, okay?" Everyone's like, "Yeah." Nothing got done, right? And the shift happened when instead of telling them what to do, it was, "Hey, guys, here's an area of..." You know, talking about areas of opportunity, which they would share, and I would share mine, too. What do you think could solve this? And now they were sharing, "Oh, I think we should do this. I think we should do this." And by the way, and you know, Justin, better than I, like, most of the 99.9%, if not all, you were going to say anyway. But the fact that they came up with it or they had it as an idea creates a whole different level of empowerment for them where they actually have, like, a desire to carry it out, right?

They're like, "It was my idea. Let's do this," right? And so, that's huge. And I didn't realize that before. And so, culture's tough because sometimes you don't see it until it's too late. Like, people are gone, you know?

Justin Donald: By the way, you could have really good revenue and not see it happening, right? So, it's like it’s there. Your business is becoming more of a house of cards than you probably realize because the culture issue isn't, like, front and center yet. But that revenue can come crashing down really fast if the culture's not right.

Cathy Christen: You don't realize it until it's too late, right? It was like my exodus of 2008. I was like, "Oh." And so, I think the things that you can be looking out for like disengagement, right, disengagement, and why is that happening. If you start seeing, like, a little bit of that, there's probably a lot more of that happening that you're not seeing, right? With the culture cost calculator, one of the things that I put together, it's really fun. I really encourage everyone to use that resource. It's in the book as a free resource, and I'm happy to actually share all of our resources that we give in the book with you. But I wanted to bring a number to culture, right? Because it is something that can be so fluid, but yet can cost you so stinking much.

And so, we put, and we looked. Okay, how about if one of your top leaders just leaves this year, right? Or two. Like, what is their salary? It's two and a half times their salary, typically, to replace them with lost time, training, and everything going into it, right? How much of your team is this? Or even meetings. You're bringing six of your leaders every week for an hour meeting or a 90-minute meeting, but nothing's frigging getting resolved. Six weeks later, we're talking about the same thing. Like, how much wasted time was that? Like, what is their hourly based on their salary, like what are they losing in that time? How much are you paying out? In many cases, when I've worked with companies, it's in the thousands that they're losing on a weekly basis from meetings that go nowhere, right?

And so, I think that having those key people that you can lean in to be those eyes just to know, like, if something feels off. But I think that with culture, it's really being more proactive, like involving the team, or if things feel off, like that's where I love to help companies, where we do a leadership intensive day, or we'll do whether it's a leadership alignment day or an executive leadership intensive that we do over two days to really get to the source and bring it back together. Like, if they already know, like I'm already feeling divides or I'm feeling like little cliques or people aren't speaking the same language. Like, there are issues, and you want to fix that fast. Because like you said, revenue looks good and then all of a sudden, poof, and you're like, "Where did that come from? I had no idea."

So, I think as founders we need to be ultra-sensitive to like small things people say, "Oh, it's no big deal." Well, it's actually probably you're just seeing the tip of the iceberg, right? You've seen those pictures where like there's so much more happening underneath. And we really need to take time to uncover that. And I think being able to bring people into rooms where we can co-create solutions or say, "Hey, we want to grow." Maybe it's like, "Hey, we want to be…" Even right now, one of our businesses, I spoke with one of our key leaders earlier that I said, I identified her. I'm like, "She's the one that can help glue this back together." There's been a lot of fragmentation in that business with our leadership team, just because they were all very connected to me, and I was out.

I had three kids in four and a half years, and so I wasn't really around. And so, during that time, a lot of little cliques formed, and I've realized that. And so, I actually was speaking to her this morning, and I said, "Hey, I wanted to chat." I said, "Do you remember what our culture used to be like?" And she's like, "Ugh, it was so fun." She started sharing all these things, and I said, "I want to bring that back." I said, "What do you think it would take?" I said, "What could we start with?" And leaning on her, even though I could've told her, "We should do this. We should do that," she was like, "You know, why don't we do, like, every other month, like, have some kind of an outing to get together and catch up on each other's lives? Some people are getting married, having kids, doing things, but, like, something out of work where it's just like they can bring the kids, bring the family."

I was like, "Oh my gosh. Heck yeah," which I've talked about this for years, right? But she was telling me. I'm like, "That sounds amazing." And she's like, "You know, maybe we can meet." I said, "Hey, what do you think about getting some additional coaching or resources or ways that I can help you with your family or wealth building or things that we can bring from experts? Maybe we meet once a month, in the morning, or every other week, or even weekly." She's like, "I would do it weekly. I meet with these guys every day at this time in the morning." And I was like, "Oh my gosh. Heck yeah," right? And so, through that, like exploration, like find that person that you know you can lock arms and trust that they're going to share with you anything, and be like, "What do you think would make things better?"

Or having the group together and saying, "Hey, guys, I just know that we could be stronger than we are. Like, I know I haven't done the best job creating the type of culture we want to have." I don't even know that we've ever really talked about culture, right? Some companies have it. Maybe they have a poster on a wall. That doesn't mean anything, right? Like, what are we about? What are our values? How do we support each other? When we have issues, how do we ask questions? Also, what's rewarded? I mean, I was working with a company a couple of years ago, and they were all about, like team, and they were of team focus. But everything they were acknowledging in their meetings was individual praise, and, like, it was about the individual.

And I'm like, "That's not really cohesive with your message here," right? And so, we sat down and really looked at that, because I think it's really important just even for a leader with alignment that if you know where you're going, that you can talk with your people around, what does that look like? How do we see those values come to life on a day-to-day basis, right? And involving them in that conversation is a beautiful way to get it started and start shifting wherever you're at right now.

Justin Donald: All great points. And I hope as people are tuning in, you can say, "Hey, this would be really helpful in my business," or, "Hey, maybe I should make this change," or "Maybe I should operate a little differently with these people." So, love everything you're sharing. Something that I experience a lot is I work with a lot of founders as well, and we have a good number of them in our mastermind. But one of the things that people are quick to do is say, "Hey, well, what are your systems? What are your SOPs?" You can solve everything with systems. And I think systems are great. This is not coming... I mean, I've built a lot of businesses that have thrived because of systems, but great systems don't solve all the problems, right?

So, I feel like many founders respond to recurring problems by adding this new process and this system and this tool, and like, "Hey, we're going to fix this," or, "Let's add this to the dashboard." So, how can they recognize when the issue isn't a system issue itself, but it's the way that their team is actually operating, or maybe even collectively working together?

Cathy Christen: Yeah. I was just going to say, I'm like keep adding systems if people aren't tied in, or I mean, sometimes people just don't know exactly how it all comes together, right? And so, sometimes it's just a level of clarity around whatever systems are there. But with systems, they need to know how they're used, who's in charge of what, where it goes. But there has to be trust amongst people also, because when someone's like, "I don't think they're going to get it done," and you're overstepping, like, you could have all the great systems, you could add 10 more stacks to your technology, and like, that's not going to change the fact that people aren't able to work together or they're overstepping each other, or everything keeps coming back because people can't make decisions to the founder, right?

And so, I think the right systems obviously help. I think one of the things that I've been seeing lately that I think is so important is to look at your people. Like, if you really want to implement to look at what are they actually working on, where are they getting stuck, right? Like, where can work be smoother, or what's still happening manually? Shoot, I was with a company a couple of weeks ago, and I'm like, "Why are you guys still having someone do this?" They're like, "Well, we're starting to get some stuff with Claude to take care of this." And I was like, "There's some... I mean, you guys have so many different you have this huge tech stack that is not working well together. And so, it needs to work together, like the technology needs to work together, and then the people need to know how to work with it together for it to actually resolve something."

And so, I would challenge and be careful with any founders who just keep, "Oh, this technology's going to help us." Technology that's understood by your people, that's reviewed, and it has its process, and they know when and how to use it, can absolutely impact your organization. But just additional tech and systems, like that's not going to do anything if your people, again, are misaligned or don't feel trusted or they even have the coaching or training on how to really use this properly.

Justin Donald: Yeah. So good. Well, this has been awesome, and I just want to thank you for taking some time to share your wisdom with us.

Cathy Christen: Oh my gosh, thank you.

Justin Donald: I'm so excited about your book. Tell us where people can find it. What's it called? Where can they find it? This is the week. I mean, you're launching it as we speak, so congratulations.

Cathy Christen: Yes. I'm so excited. Thank you so much. So, yeah, we are on Amazon. So, The SCALE Advantage is the name of the book, and then SCALE is for systems, culture, alignment, and leadership pipeline, and empowerment of people. And I'm super excited to be able to hear back on these areas. I mean, in the book, there's some fun stuff and, and very, like, immediately implementable things that you can do with your team to fix and course-correct. And so, I would say, for anyone listening, a freebie that we're going to give to the community the freebies are in the book but there's a score, a SCALE scorecard, and it's about a 10-minute diagnostic that we created to really bring light to what's happening, right?

Because, like we said, culture can be such an invisible thing. But to really see, oh wow, this is what's hurting right now. And then be able to go and tackle that pillar first, you know? I've seen some people make mistakes of trying to fix everything at the same time, and it's like, what is the pillar that you feel is going to provide the biggest leverage in this quarter? And just focus in on that for the next 90 days, right? There are some great exercises there, and I'm happy to chat with anyone. I've got some free resources and kind of DIY growth guides. If they take the quiz, you're welcome to book a call, and we waive the fee for just a consultation of the diagnostic and give you some tools that can help out, right?

And if there are ways we can further serve, whether it's with people, alignment of people, or maybe it's technology. You know, we have an incredible AI implementation, a technology team that we're working with, to really have higher-level, sophisticated solutions for people. But yeah, check it out on Amazon, and I think my website, too, cathychristen.com has it on there. And I'm sure you'll have it here in the show notes, hopefully, so people can access it. But thank you so much, Justin, for having me on here. And if anyone wants to connect, LinkedIn is great. You know, Instagram's also fun. So, love to see you.

Justin Donald: All right. Well, I love it. Well, I hope that people take the opportunity to work with you, learn about your intensives, learn about the different ways that you work with executives, founders, teams, all that. So, thank you so much. And I like ending every episode with a question for our audience. So, for those of you tuning in, if you're watching this, if you're listening to this, what is one step you can take today to move towards financial freedom, and really just move towards living a life that you desire on your terms, not a life by default like most people, but a life by design? And how can Cathy help you accomplish that with some of her tools, systems, and expertise in the business world? Thanks! And we'll catch you next week.