In today’s episode, I’m speaking with my friend Josh Cantwell. Josh is the founder of Freeland Ventures, where he manages $40 million in capital and $240 million in assets. He uses this to offer investors passive real estate opportunities to diversify their portfolios, including 401(k)s, retirement roll over funds, and self-directed IRAs.
Josh is deeply knowledgeable about his field. He has extensive experience as both someone who empowers lifestyle investors and as a lifestyle investor himself, and he uses his freedom to show up for his family when they’ve needed him the most. In today’s podcast, we dive into the world of passive real estate investing – and how to find deals that suit your portfolio’s unique needs.
- How Josh found his passion for numbers at an early age and gave himself a foundational education in investing.
- What is a value-add apartment syndication?
- The difference between a syndication and a fund – and how syndications are structured to benefit passive investors and minimize risk.
- What a 1031 exchange is and what makes them so attractive to real estate investors.
- What the future of housing in America looks like as property continues to get more and more expensive.
- Why mobile home parks are such a big opportunity for investors.
Tweetables“True businesses that scale, only can scale through people.” – @JoshCantwell Click To Tweet
- Freeland Ventures
- Freeland Ventures – view opportunities
- Want to sell your apartment or multi-family property?
- Strategic Real Estate Coach
- Freeland Capital Management (For Passive Investors)
- Freeland Ventures Property Criteria
- Who Not How: The Formula to Achieve Bigger Goals Through Accelerating Teamwork
- Strategic Coach
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Connect with Justin Donald
Justin Donald: Well, I'm so excited to get some time with you here today, Josh. I'm thrilled that we finally got a chance to connect here on the podcast. So, we've known each other here for years and I just love it because we have talked at length about investments. And so, it's fun to have you here in this setting and able to share kind of some of the things you're doing but I'd love, first and foremost, to have you share anything that you may be excited about like what's exciting in your world right now, Josh?
Josh Cantwell: Yeah. Well, what's exciting for me, Justin, is well on a personal level, a lot of the things that we've built a passive income, a lot of the things we talk about in your book, a lot of things show up on your podcast has really allowed me to have the freedom now to really take care of my dad. So, this is kind of on a very personal level. My dad was my first mentor. He was the first entrepreneur that I knew. He left a very high paying sales job to start his own business, started it with a partner, eventually bought his partner out, owned an incredible employee benefits company, ended up retiring. Unfortunately, though, my dad suffers from pretty advanced Parkinson's and I promised my dad years ago that as my dad got older and if there was ever an issue, I promised that he would never struggle and I feel like a lot of the moves that I made over the past five or ten years now, it’s allowing me to fulfill my promise to my dad. So, on a very personal level, even just yesterday, my dad now was to the point where he's been having trouble talking and walking and I'm there with my mom, taking care of my dad, being there for him, being there for my mom, who's spry and healthy but I do feel like the promise that I made there, this is just very raw and real in my mind right now, Justin, so it’s why I'm letting this kind of rip.
It allows me to do that. It allows me to coach my kids in volleyball, be there for my kids and take them to school in the mornings, help take care of my father, who really needs a lot of help now, all because of a lot of things we talk about in your book, the lifestyle investments, the things we do with apartments. So, although I have a lot of investments I'm excited about, I feel kind of privileged now with my dad's advanced age to be there and support him when a lot of other guys might have a corporate job and be flying all over the world and to be pulled away because of their job. I kind of come and go and help take care of my dad whenever I want to be there, whenever my mom needs help. It's the most important work that I do today is taking care of him. And so, I'm excited about that, and as we record this at the end of the week kind of reflecting on that as I kind of wind the week down.
Justin Donald: Well, thanks for sharing and really just thanks for being so open about that. I know that it's tough when you see these. I see this in my own life where you've got your father who you have all this respect for but you can see as they're kind of falling apart just a little bit more. It's tough to see the hero struggle the way that they are but it's also rewarding to be able to help out. I love how you have built your life and you've created this freedom, this lifestyle. So, A, you can pour into your dad but, B, you can be the dad to your kids that he was to you and hopefully even better to find a way to do it better. We're all going to fail but if you can do just a little bit better than what you experienced, I think that's a major win. So, kudos to you and a great job building that lifestyle. I'm curious, what got you into investing in the first place?
Josh Cantwell: So, it goes way back, Justin. Again, I had a great mentor in my father, but even going back into high school, I was so interested in math, I was so interested in formulas, I was so interested in business. I was fortunate to do some internships for my father and some internships for some other companies I had experienced and my dad almost lost it when I graduated from college. Instead of taking a high paying job and getting a sales job or some sort of management position, I actually jumped in, I was fortunate. As a senior in college I finished up my last year of college football and I took an internship, an unpaid internship making zero money, 100% commission working for Northwestern Mutual. It was one of the top 10 internships in the country. At 21 years old, I learned about life insurance, whole life insurance, term insurance, variable insurance, I got my Series 6 license, my 63 license, my 65 license. By the time I was 25 years old, I was already managing about $30 million for other people. It almost happened by accident but really, Justin, what happened was I think my brain was turned on to investments and to money and sales and that's where my brain was pointed.
So, as I was seeking a job, as I was seeking some sort of employment, as I was seeking the first kind of phase of my life, when I got that job, I was like, “This is amazing. I get to work 14 hours a day with zero salary and I love it.” I love having five and six, seven meetings a day. I love going to people's houses at 8 PM at night. So, I just started very young because I knew I wanted to be in business. My dad was in the insurance and employee benefits world. So, I very early, early on, had a lot of exposure to investments.
Justin Donald: Well, that's really exciting that you have such a foundational education there. A lot of people, they don't have that vantage point where they have, A, invested their own money, B, invested money for other people, and then, C, are then later in life in this world where they're a professional investor in alternative investments. And so, I'd love to talk about your company, Freeland Ventures, and learn a little bit more about what you're doing today. It's cool hearing how it started but I'd love to know today what's going on and what's exciting and what Freeland Ventures is all about.
Josh Cantwell: Sure. Yeah, Justin. Thanks for asking. I appreciate that. We basically are, to keep it very short and simple, we are a cash flow investor specifically in apartments and we are starting to dabble a little bit more in self-storage and mobile home parks but our backbone is in value-add apartments. That's what I'm excited about. We own over 2,700 units of apartments as an owner-operator but also as a co-sponsor or co-syndicator. So, we not only find and structure and purchase our own deals as an owner-operator but we also have invested a lot of money into other people's deals. I used to run a private equity fund. So, we manage at one point about $40 million or $50 million in private money and private lender loans. We've now pivoted all of that money into value-add apartments. For those of your audience that don't know what a value-add apartment syndication is, it's essentially finding an apartment building that either has a tired owner, a tired landlord or a tired seller, or the building is a little bit tired. The building is a little bit outdated. It's got some deferred maintenance. And so, you typically now are finding these deals where people are getting or the seller is getting into his 60s or 70s or his 80s and is looking to sell. He may have run out of his tax benefits and is looking to sell or the building is tired. So, we're looking to step in, buy that existing structure, do some improvements, we call CapEx or capital improvements, raise the rents, and bring it to its true value and get our investors out, exit them through a sale or a refi.
Justin Donald: That's fantastic. And so, you and I have some experience in this. I've done a lot of investments in this space in syndications and in these types of real estate asset classes. I love value-add apartment complexes and many others in the realm of cash flowing real estate. So, real quick, just for the listeners, can you help elaborate or dissect a little bit more what a syndication is? What does that mean for someone that doesn't know what it is? And what maybe is different about what you do than you've mentioned you'd had a fund before so what's different between a syndication and a fund? I think that's really important for people to understand.
Josh Cantwell: Sure. Yeah. And your audience of investors really needs to know this. So, a syndication is you have typically an owner-operator that finds the deal and they have maybe enough of a balance sheet, enough of experience that they can go get a first mortgage, let's say from Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac, and that's going to cover 80% of the purchase price. Well, then they're going to have to go out and they don't have the million dollars, or in some cases, 5 million or some cases $10 million to put down in their own money. The idea of syndication is to go out to a group of investors and meet with those investors and have them invest essentially as a group of investors or a pool of investors. Those investors then typically are what's known as limited partners and those limited partners are going to have some sort of return on investment. But that syndication simply means that the owner-operator or the deal sponsor is going to go out and find a group of investors to basically put the downstroke, the down payment, the capital improvements, the soft costs. So, a lot of times the owner-operator, they may or may not have any of their own actual money in a deal.
Sometimes we have our own money in a deal, sometimes we don't. But as an owner-operator, you have lots of different boxes to check. You got to find a deal, number one. You have to structure it in a way that the bank is interested in funding it. You have to structure in a way that passive investors want to come in and invest in it. That's the syndication. So, there's a lot of things that an owner-operator can do to provide value to a deal, whether they put some of their own money in or not. Sometimes they have to sponsor the loan and personally guarantee the loan. So, the syndication will often happen because it's more advantageous to bring in a group of investors to invest in a deal. Each of those investors get some sort of preferred return, they get equity, they get a little share of the deal, or whatever that is, and that we were kind of spreading the risk across all those investors and allows you to do bigger deals because you have more people involved. That's what a true syndication is.
Justin Donald: That's great. And so, it's a great vehicle. Obviously, every deal is its own deal, right? So, people need to analyze and make decisions based on the data set that deal and the way that it's structured because these are generally direct investments into an asset. And so, you and I have had some experience doing this. We've worked together and we've had a lot of fun. I'd love to know, from your standpoint, what you see as some of the value-adds for your own investment. So, obviously, we talked about when you get the asset, there's value-add, and you can increase the value but what's your value-add? What are your differentiators to make Freeland Ventures such a great and unique investment?
Josh Cantwell: Yeah. I appreciate that so much, Justin. To answer your last question about the fund, I forgot to touch base on that, the difference you kind of touched on it is each of our individual apartment deals, do you see these deals are between $5 million to $25 million each? They're done as a one-off investment, their own special purpose LLC. Some people do these kinds of deals in a fund and if you invest in a fund then that fund is also investing in multiple deals all at one time. So, you're then spreading your investment across multiple deals. Your investment is kind of fractured across those deals. That's the difference. We prefer for an accounting purpose, for legal purposes, for liability purposes, we prefer to do these what we call one-off deals where an investor investing know exactly which deal they've invested in. So, I wanted to answer that. Secondly, how are we different? Well, Freeland Ventures I think it comes down to experience for a passive investor. How are we different?
We might find the same apartment deal that another investor finds. We may structure it the same way. The difference in where I think I can provide value is to the passive investor in their experience with us, meaning having personal relationships with our investors, our investors having my personal cell phone, my business partners’ personal cell phone, having an online investment platform where they can log in and see their investment, they can see their updates, doing quarterly both written and video updates of a property both in the field and sometimes maybe on a Zoom call or something like that, where we're sharing updates. I'm baffled by how many people up invest in deals and the operator or the sponsor is not proactively giving these folks updates on their investment. What's going on with the capital improvements? What's going on with leasing? What's going on with rental increases? Those are very important things to building a relationship. Then when that investor has a great experience, that's when all this pays off because typically they invest more money, they invest more often, and they refer their friends. And so, when that happens, then we can do even larger deals or do more deals in that way. So, we don't develop, we don't build so that doesn't make us different.
A lot of guys invest in apartments. We specifically invest in value-add apartments. We'd like to focus on the investor experience. And also, we'd like to do as far as a structure that makes us different, Justin, is we'd like to give our investors a preferred return. And again, this isn't an offer so I want to make sure we make this little disclaimer. This isn't an offer but typically, we pay our investors a preferred return and we give them equity in a deal. So, our goal is to get them in, do the value-add, execute our business plan, then refinance within 18 months to 36 months, return 100% of the investors' capital back to them and they retain equity in that deal in perpetuity with no money in it. So, they're playing with the house’s money. So, between the offer, the structure, and the relationship, I think that's what really makes us different in the marketplace.
Justin Donald: Yeah. And I tend to agree with that as well. I mean, that's one of the things that I like and from my personal experience with you guys, I like that you're conservative with projections but then you deliver generally better than what you project it. So, I like that. That feels good. The timeline is generally faster. On some of your deals, obviously, we're not making any promises here but you've got deals where it was projected that the return of principal would be in a year-and-a-half or two years and it happened in one year. And so, I love that that's possible in this asset class because you don't get that everywhere and most people don't even understand the value of getting principal back quickly to then reinvest. So, one of it, you said, "Hey, it's great because you're playing with house money.” I couldn't agree more. You've de-risked the deal. All your money's out in a short period of time and all the upside gain is just icing on the cake. But secondly, and people don't see this too often, it's that you get to take that initial capital and reinvest it in something else for another deal where you can get more equity. So, I just love it. You and I have talked a lot…
Josh Cantwell: Doubling down on that stuff, Justin, is big.
Justin Donald: Yeah. You and I have talked a lot about just the power of the way that the deals are structured that, first of all, structuring is so important. In my book, I talk about the four philosophies before I even get into the 10 commandments. And so, one of those philosophies is truly the structure. It's mindset first then structure, then filtering, and then negotiating. And so, I'm sure that you encompass all those but the structure really plays a huge role because it's got to be the right terms and it's got to work. And it's got to be the right terms for you to get the deal done but it's also got to be the right terms to get the investors in and interested in the deal. So, I'm curious, other thoughts that you have around any of those structuring and negotiating and final terms?
Josh Cantwell: Yeah. The structure for us is really important because, as you said, a lot of apartment deals, and if you haven't looked at a lot of apartment deals, a lot of the audience may not know the difference. Some of them probably know the difference but in a lot of apartment indications, what happens is you get into a deal, you're hoping for essentially having that building grow because it's in the path of progress. So, a lot of investors will pay full price for a building. They’re projecting rental increases and the property to increase in value because it's in the path of progress and they're waiting three to five to seven to maybe 10 years until that building has been sold or refinanced. I get it. I get the market economics, the geographic economics, the population migration economics. I grew up in the real estate space flipping houses and when you flip a house, you have to buy and be all in at 65% to 70% of its after-repaired value or its stabilized value. So, in my backbone, in my core, that's what I know. That's what I've been grilling myself and my students, my members, and my audiences for over 15 years is to always be in an investment of roughly 65% to 70% of its stabilized value.
You could use that same philosophy with buying any kind of business, buying any kind of real estate, even buying potentially a bond that throws off a coupon that throws off a return. Eventually, that bond will mature and it will pay off at full price if you hold it all the way to maturity. So, this is a philosophy that's available in all different kinds of business deals and investments but it starts with that. And so, for us at the beginning, we know we're looking for a very specific type of apartment that has again a tired owner. It's got outdated fixtures. It's got low rents. I'll give you an example, Justin. The last apartment I just bought, the previous owner only raised the rents by $15 in the last five years. Now, this is during one of the greatest expansions in our country's history. Nobody's making more money, unemployment is super low, business is expanding, the Federal Reserve got interest rates very, very low. And this guy, for whatever reason, had no motivation to turn the units, improve the building, and raise the rents. Why is that? Well, we found out he was at the end of his depreciation schedule.
So, he owned that commercial asset for its full depreciation schedule. He told me when we bought the building, "Hey, if you guys didn't buy this building, I was going to have to finally start paying taxes next year.” So, he sold the building and didn't improve it because he didn't see any long-term value in the building. That creates another opportunity though for us and for him. We bought the building and we thought it was a great price. He also was able to set aside all of his proceeds over a million bucks, put them into a 1031 exchange account, and transfer and move those 1031 dollars into the next investment. So, he's able to do that and pay little or no tax on that 1031 exchange. And so, my philosophy comes down to what you can buy. There are certainly guys that buy stabilized apartment buildings in the path of progress. Those deals often take three to five to seven years or more to get your principal back. In your book, Justin, you talk about getting a quick return of principal, Chapter #4. I believe in that myself even before I ever knew you. That was one of my philosophies, too, and so we'd like to structure deals.
What that does is it creates what we call contractor risk or construction risk because we do need to turn units and improve the building. But here's how we offset that, we offset that because we'd like to buy buildings that are over 90% occupied. So, as units turn, it's usually through organic turns. We only kick out the tenants that we know that we don't want to keep long-term. So, we're only going to have a couple of vacancies at a time. The building is still going to cash flow and then every time we turn a unit, we can raise the rents $100, $200, $300, and now we're taking that asset that we bought at 65%, 70% of its value and it's eventually going to be worth maybe over two years. It's going to be worth that stabilize 100% of its value and then we can refinance. That is the structure that we really like. You can be an apartment investor. You can slice deals up a million ways. That's our structure that really works for us and it works for investors.
Justin Donald: I love hearing that and I love that you have your own process that you thought through like this is what's important to us because as an investor, I've done that. I need to know what I'm looking for just as you do running a syndication but one of the things I also look for, I mean, I look for good markets, strong markets when I invest and then I also look for high occupancy for the same reason that you just said because it's a de-risker. If I already know that there's demand for that product and they can fill it at the price point that they have in a dilapidated building but there's still a lot of people there and they're still good employment, I know that that's a lot easier of a transition. So, that is one of the things that I look for. It's one of the things I liked about the last deal that we did, which is pretty cool. I love that.
Josh Cantwell: No question.
Justin Donald: I'd love for you to also expand a little bit here. You mentioned a 1031 exchange. This is actually one of my favorite vehicles that real estate investors can utilize and technically, it's not just geared towards real estate, though. It's primarily used in real estate. I'd love to have you expand on what that means for those that have maybe never done one or don't know what it is or don't know how advantageous this strategy can be.
Josh Cantwell: Right. So, 1031 exchange, also known as what's called a like-kind exchange is that if you own an asset and let's just take value-add apartments because that's my niche, let's take this seller, the seller’s name was Ron, owned this building for 27 years, and Ron's made a large profit on this building over the years. He's also had tax deductions. His deduction schedule and depreciation schedule is running out. So, he keeps the building and he sells the building. Not only is he making a profit on the sale price of the building but he's also going to have what's known as depreciation recapture. That's going to pull all those mechanisms that are going to increase his taxes because over the last 27 years, he's paying very little tax. His depreciation, his expenses have offset his cash flow. Ron's paid very little tax. Well, now if he just sells the building outright, we buy it, he walks away, he's going to have probably more tax than he actually has in proceeds from the building. Imagine that. Imagine getting a half a million or a million dollars in cash from the sale of a building, but only that in taxes, right? Nobody wants that.
So, the beautiful thing about real estate and its 1031 exchange concept is that you sell a building and trade it. You can set aside the dollars and the proceeds in a specific 1031 exchange account and then you have a limited amount of time, where you can then exchange and buy a new building and roll those dollars into the new building and thus defer or eliminate any of all of the taxes that you would have paid on that first sale. So, imagine that. Imagine having a business or stock that you make profits on for 27-and-a-half years but never pay any tax on it. Then all of a sudden, you're about to sell that business or sell that stock, and the government's about to knock on your door asking you for hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars in tax and you can legally not answer the door if you just exchange that asset for a like-kind asset and the government walks away from your door and never comes asking for your tax dollars. It's an amazing, amazing tool. One of the things that is concerning that we're watching with this new presidential election is that Biden, whether you like him or not, I'm not here to talk politics, but he has talked about potentially eliminating the 1031 exchange.
So, we're obviously watching that. We'll see what happens but that 1031 is a very, very advanced but very tried and true and proven mechanism of why people invest in real estate long-term so they can exchange there and not never pay those taxes, everything from building to building to building. It's an amazing thing. Can't really do it in a lot of other industries. You can but it's most widely used in real estate.
Justin Donald: Yeah. You did a great job explaining it. I think it's one of the greatest tax code strategies that exist. A lot of people look at the tax code and they say, "These are all the things you can't do,” but really the tax codes built 99% of the time to say, "If you do these things, we're going to incentivize you this way. Our goal is to have this behavior from our citizens so we're going to incentivize you to do these things.” And so, if you read it that way, it's amazing how it can pave the path. And then there's all kinds of additional layers that you can get into with these 1031s. You can do a reverse 1031. Traditionally, you would do a 1031 into other deeded property, meaning that you own that property but also there are several companies that do this where you can do your 1031 into a fund, which is most people don't even know that this is possible. It's kind of tricky, the mechanics are tricky, but there is a way to do it and some companies will help facilitate this, especially if you are in a bind, where you don't want to pay the taxes. I think a lot of people if there is risk of losing the 1031 are probably going to be making some moves here in the near future before it’s eliminated.
Josh Cantwell: A lot of lobbying going on for sure to not to get rid of it. People say, look, either become a millionaire by investing in real estate or you hold your millions in real estate. That is very true. Lots and lots of investors that I know have made money selling an ecommerce business, selling all kinds of physical products businesses. They've made money as an executive but they tend to hold a chunk of their wealth in real estate because of these tax benefits. And so, as people look to invest and, Justin, I know you've done private lending and hard money lending and all these kind of things, and a lot of people will do those kinds of debt instruments in a tax-sheltered environment like an IRA or a 401(k) and then they'll invest in real estate because it's got a lot of intrinsic tax benefits. They'll invest in those with cash outside of the IRA and that's how they're able to eliminate or reduce their tax liability tremendously.
Justin Donald: Yeah. No doubt. I mean, it's a great vehicle and I appreciate you sharing with our listeners all the details because you describe it very well and you give extra detail that I feel like most people don't give. So, that's great. Hey, I'm real curious. One of the questions that I love to find out from people and this is just in general, I mean, part of the reason that I love having a podcast is because I just bring people on that I want to hang out with any way that I enjoy their time and just have a blast with.
Josh Cantwell: Right. Me too.
Justin Donald: And part of my goal is to open up my network to the world, to people that are interested in what it is that I do and learning how to invest in a way that produces cash flow and so I love opening up connections and relationships to people. And so, one of my favorite things that I love asking people about is what’s something new that you're listening to or that you've learned or that you've read recently? Like, what has challenged you or inspired you that maybe you didn't know before?
Josh Cantwell: So, what's interesting is I just dug into this brand new book called Who Not How. Do you know? Have you heard? It's a brand new book.
Justin Donald: I have.
Josh Cantwell: Dan Sullivan, Strategic Coach, right? This is an amazing book. So, I've been following Dan Sullivan with Strategic Coach since I was in my early 20s. Matter of fact, one of my company is called Strategic Real Estate Coach. They kind of named after his business because he had such a profound impact on me. I learned at a young age about this way and this kind of goes along, Justin, with your lifestyle investor philosophy. As a lifestyle investor myself, I like to break down my week into certain types of days, days where I'm completely free to just truly have my lifestyle and spending time with my family and my friends and the people that I want to really be around. But obviously, I'd like to work. I really enjoy my passion. I like taking care of my family and my kids and charities, my parents through my work and so I have certain days where I do nothing but that. I just head down really like to work hard and do that. Then you have buffer days. Buffer days is something I learned from Dan Sullivan of when you're doing work that you have to do, but it's not necessarily revenue-producing or the highest level work. I learned all that from Dan in my early 20s. This new book, Dan I don't know has come out with a book in I don't know how long, 10 years or more? So, this new book, Who Not How, is all about the people and the relationship capital. If you want to accomplish something, it's about the people that you bring and the people that surround you, the peer group that you share.
If you need something, let's say it's finding an apartment deal, well, there's somebody that's already out there finding apartments. You just got to find out who they are to shortcut that process. If you're looking to buy a business, let's say it's an e-commerce business like you talked about in your book, there's people out there in a peer group who are already buying businesses, so just associate with them. If you needed a new CFO, well, finding the right CFO, I found every time I have a challenge in one of my businesses, Justin, it's usually not a process challenge. It's usually a person, somebody who is not being creative enough or flexible enough. They're not holding himself accountable. It's usually a person, a people issue. We have a lot of process in our business but the best people, they create process. The best people create systems. The best people enhance the business. The best people poke holes in a business and then fill the holes, right? People who are a challenge or people that are not really helping, those people need to be removed from the business as fast as possible.
And I found in this latest venture for my Freeland Ventures, my apartment syndications, I've got two amazing partners and I've got a CFO, and we even have a rehab project manager. Us five, the adaptability, the level of motivation is working so well, it just makes me reflect back on all the business failures I've had and things that didn't go well, it was usually because of a person because I wasn't seeking out the best person. I wasn't trying to replace a B player for an A player. True businesses that scale, only can scale through people. I like to tell people, "The business of business is people.” The business of running a business is all about the people. As a CEO, my job is to bring in the right people because a lot of those people, once they're in the business, they're going to run with it, they're going to run with wherever the job is. And so, this book, Who Not How, to me has a profound impact just in the last couple of weeks of me reading it and going through it. That is really, really important to me. Secondly, from an investment perspective, we're starting to dabble in mobile home parks and I'm just so excited to learn. I have not done a mobile home park yet. I'm going to look at one next week. But this concept of owning a park where there are multiple streams of income from a management fee income from the homes in the park that are owned by the tenant or by the resident, that's one stream of income.
Then as you know, Justin, there's the income that comes from buying a property and selling it with owner financing, and then there’s buying the house in the park and basically renting it out. I had a call with my commercial broker just yesterday and we're talking through some of this and it's just like talk about diversifying risk, talk about multiple streams of income, talk about really high cap rates and rates of return, and also, Justin, what I'm excited about to learn more about this niche, we've got 2,700 units of apartments. I own zero mobile homes. Right now, oh my gosh, mobile homes are amazing. I don't even own one yet but the idea that this is potentially an affordable housing solution, right, so many people in our country are talking about affordable housing, affordable housing. The government doesn't just need to keep giving away and giving away, giving away all these things to people that can't afford homes. Let's just be a little bit more creative in the homes that are out there. I mean, you could buy a great single wide or double wide 1,000-square-foot, 1,200-square-foot property, put in a mobile home park for $25,000. So, this concept of potentially moving mobile home parks out of the country, moving them where they're more accessible to people, not necessarily in the urban core, but more acceptable to the suburban community, I think that's an unbelievable play to solve our affordable housing crisis that we're having because we truly are.
Properties are getting so expensive. Justin, as you know. There’s a lot of people getting left behind that can't afford homes. Well, if you can have a 1,200-square-foot house and the way they're building these mobile homes now, they're amazing. They’re beautiful with the flooring and the cabinets, it's amazing. These are things that last for 50 and 60 years. So, again, full disclosure. I'm not in one yet but I fully intend on getting into one as soon as possible. There is one of mine. Justin, what are yours? I want to get into a mobile home park as soon as possible. So, I'm really excited to learn more about that niche.
Justin Donald: I love it. So, I'm such a huge fan of mobile home parks, as you know, and it just warms my heart to know that you're excited to move into this direction because there's just so many advantages, as you already mentioned, and a lot of people don't even know that in mobile home parks you can depreciate them at 15 years versus the 27-and-a-half that you're used to in your apartment complexes. So, it's a whole nother world, and yes, affordable housing it's the greatest thing because it is the final step. And so, yeah, this could be the game changer and this can be the solution and I love it also because there's some supply and demand issues, right? The supply is low and the demand is high and I love investments like that. And to parlay what you said about Dan Sullivan, I mean, what a great guy, what a great group in Strategic Coach. That's just fantastic. So, thank you for sharing that. It's a great book. In fact, that book had a big impact on some of the things and it's not even the book because the impact happened before the book. It was the philosophy and the psychology of the who, finding the who and getting the who in place because with the right whos, you can accomplish whatever you want to accomplish. And so, for me, I was able to build a few things that I would have never been able to do had I not utilize that concept. So, that is an awesome share.
Hey, it has been so much fun, Josh, having you on the show. What I'd love to do is just make sure that our listeners know how to find you. So, if you wouldn't mind sharing a way that they can connect with you online and I say this also from two standpoints. We've got the listeners who may be interested in investing but we've got listeners who may be interested in giving deals on the syndication side. So, I'd love to know just where each group could reach you.
Josh Cantwell: Sure. Fantastic. I appreciate you asking. So, our main website is FreelandVentures.com and there are two kinds of subpages that hang off of that. So, FreelandVentures.com/Passive for anybody that's a passive investor that just wants to take a look at deal flow and how we structure them. You can actually log into our software there and see the deal flow that we're investing in. So, FreelandVentures.com/Passive and then FreelandVentures.com/Criteria, there you can see a quick video and our buying criteria of what we're looking to buy. So, if anybody has a deal where maybe they don't know if it's a deal, they want someone to help them underwrite it, review it, or invest in it, that's a great place to find our buying criteria and you could submit an email to us there with potential deal flow. So, those are two great sites to reach us.
Justin Donald: Fantastic. Well, thank you so much for blessing us with your time and just your expertise and just being an open book both personally and professionally. I've had a blast hanging out with you so thank you so much.
Josh Cantwell: Hey, Justin, thanks so much for having me. Appreciate it.
Justin Donald: Yeah. I want to say to our listeners, it's really important, each episode that I share with you, to me, it is all about taking action and taking the next step. You've heard some great information from Josh and my goal is that you implement it and that you take just one step further than what you did the last time that you listened or what you did the last time with your investment. So, move forward, keep pushing ahead, and take knowledge. Knowledge is great but it's only great if it's actually utilized and put into motion. So, thanks for listening and we'll talk with you next time.
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