020: Leveraging The Enneagram to Become a Better Investor with Susan Drumm

Justin Donald: All right. Susan, I'm excited to get some time with you here today. Thanks for joining. 

Susan Drumm: Absolutely. Excited to be here talking with you. 

Justin Donald: This is fun. Well, this is going to be a really special treat for our audience. And so, when I think about kind of the way that we met, it's pretty fun. You and I are part of a really cool group called The Selfless Givers. And the whole idea of this group is how can we help other people out? And it really is just such a cool place. We originally were connected because of our mutual friend, Jonathan Kaiser, and I think the world of him. I know you think the world of him, but I'd love for you to share your thoughts so far on Selfless Givers and what you think of the group. 

Susan Drumm: Oh, I feel so blessed to be part of this group and looking for how fun is it if you can help someone else and in the process, you get help too. So, extraordinary group of leaders and entrepreneurs, and I'm learning various businesses. You know, they're very different but I'm learning so much through other's journeys in the process, particularly ones that have launched a book which I'm going to be doing as well as you have. 

Justin Donald: That's right. I'm excited. And we'll definitely be able to get into that here today. I'm looking forward to chatting about that more. And, you know, our group is really comprised of a lot of experts here. So, when I think about all the people that are part of Selfless Givers, you've got some high-level professionals in many different genres of professional life. But we do have a lot of speakers and authors. We have a lot of successful entrepreneurs in general. And so, what better group could there be than what we have for launching? And I know that this group has been instrumental for me, and I know it will be for you, too. 

Susan Drumm: Yeah. They say your life is dependent on the quality of your relationships so you might like investing in your relationships really has you profit in your life. And that's what this is about. 

Justin Donald: So, I want to know a little bit more about you, Susan. Let's dig into what you do, what really gifts you have. I mean, you've got all kinds of unique gifts that you serve the world with and I'd love to talk as the day goes on, as our time together continues on just ways that we can apply it to creating an ideal life and to really living a life with intentionality, not with a life by default. 

Susan Drumm: Yes, absolutely. So, I'm a CEO coach and focus on leadership development for C-Suite teams. And I have a consulting firm that also works with rising stars and high potentials. And so, I'll work with entrepreneurs and executives on how do they scale and grow their company and their own leadership skills to be able to handle that. And often I find what was once worked well when you were a five-person company, a 10-person company, your leadership has to keep pace with the growth that you're experiencing within your company. And that's where we come in to help with that transition and help with almost an operating model mindset shift that needs to occur. 

Justin Donald: That's great. And that mindset shift can be on many different levels, right? We can look at this as a corporate framework but you can also look at this as a personal framework. And there are a lot of ways you can get to shifting your mindset to accomplish whatever it is that you want. It doesn't have to be business, but it can be business, right? 

Susan Drumm: Absolutely. And in fact, I coined this phrase, your personal evolution sparks your leadership evolution. So, we're all leaders in our own lives. So, how are you leading? But it really starts with you as a human being and looking at what are the gifts you bring, what are the strengths, but also what are your blind spots? What do you not know that you don't know that might be getting in your way, that if you widen perspective or widen your lens creates tremendous shift and growth to be able to create the things that you want in your life? So, our programs really work on both individual coaching and individual growth as a person, as a leader, as well as some of the team and let's say broader organizational growth. And they combine those two things together because then you really get a flywheel effect where the team is working more effectively together and the individuals are working more effectively. 

Justin Donald: That's great. So, tell me, what are some of the common things that you see? I mean, you work with huge companies, you work with very successful entrepreneurs and founders, executives. What are some of the common themes that you see where you're able to add value, things that maybe they're not doing, or things that they can do better? 

Susan Drumm: Yeah. I see a lot in ultimately communication. How are we communicating? And what I think a hot topic right now that's so important is empathy. How well are you able to understand and connect with the people that you need to communicate to? And that's important for teams. That's important for colleagues, that's important in your home life and your relationships. So, when we do that work in the team setting, it translates all the way down. In fact, that's a lot of comments I get. Like, I never realized this would help me with my wife or my own life and I'm seeing such benefits with that as well. So, all of those are places that we look at communication, we look at building empathy, and we've got some very specific assessments and tools that allow people to provide a framework to understand and get better in. And I think that that's one of the things that I really try to do. I do best with frameworks and frameworks, breaking it down into simple models that people can understand and grow within. 

Justin Donald: Well, let's talk about that a little bit because you, I know specialize you're an expert with Enneagram, and I just think that it's imperative. So, we have a lot of entrepreneurs that listen to the show and a lot of them are here because they want to learn how to invest or they want to learn how to develop a better lifestyle or the exact lifestyle that they desire to have. We definitely have people that have jobs that are listening in. So, our audience is pretty vast but one of the things that I think is just powerful, I mean, you said it because it works on a personal level, it works with your spouse, it works with your friends is these personality and behavioral assessments. Coming from a person that is an entrepreneur at heart, I've started companies, I've scaled companies. I have used assessments to hire the right people and to move people around and get them in the right positions because organizationally you might have great people, but they might just be in the wrong role or they may be butting heads with someone and maybe you can kind of put a buffer in there. There are so many different things you can do when you understand this. So, I'd love to hear your thoughts around Enneagram and the power of that, both personally and professionally. 

Susan Drumm: Yeah. It's such an incredibly powerful tool. Personally, I started using it, I want to say, about eight or nine years ago and what I found is that it allows you to create the empathy. You learn that what I'm motivated by, other people aren't motivated by. And so, there are nine different primary styles. And I was even thinking about this for your listeners. I could apply the Enneagram for how people invest even. There's a core driver or core motivator and what could get in their way with investing and what strength they may bring to the investing process for each type. As we do the same thing, we apply it to different leadership competencies, how to give feedback based on type, how to delegate based on type, how to influence and persuade. What are the natural gifts you're going to come with based on your type and what are some areas that you could work on? Or who do you need on your team to fill that gap? Because I like to say we think we're chameleons and can see 360 degrees. But actually, we have a peripheral vision and based on that vision, this is what we see but we can't think of that is all of reality. There's something behind our head that we're not seeing. And the thing is, someone else is seeing that. And so, I think even as an investor, it would be interesting to learn more about your style. So, you look at what's my blind spot, what am I going to be really good at, and what's my blind spot as a result of that? 

Justin Donald: And that's so true. And when you think about being an investor, everyone's got different skills, whether you're an investor, an entrepreneur, or whatever, you have these skills that are just innate. They're so easy, you know, maybe it's because they are, in fact, innate. Maybe it's because you have ten thousand hours and so now you can just, it's like autopilot. You can do it in your sleep. But then there are your blind spots, as you mentioned. And, number one, you want to become aware of them but, number two, once you are aware of them, can you put other people around you that help support where you may be weak? And I love hearing that. I know from a business standpoint, that's incredible. I'd love to hear even more about how you can utilize Enneagram and some of these things to hack investing, to become a better investor, to make less poor choices and more good choices. 

Susan Drumm: Yes. Well, I could go through so I took some notes. I was thinking, oh, how could I? Let's apply Enneagram to investing and think about the different personality types. And again, it's core motivator. So, let me also back up and say, what makes Enneagram different than, say, some other assessments is there are things like Myers-Briggs and DISC, which are also very valuable, but Enneagram goes to, I would say, a layer beneath those and it gets to core motivator. So, behaviors could show up very differently from this, that people of the same type but their core driver or motivator is the same. And when you get to that level, then what opens up is that ability to see what you're missing or what the blind spot is. Because you're motivated to do this, you're not seeing this behind you. So, with that as a backdrop, I went through the different types. And by the way, do you know your type? 

Justin Donald: I do. Yeah. So, I'm a huge fan of Enneagram. Because I started a company and I built out a lot of the recruiting systems both internally and externally, I got really familiar with a lot of the different assessments, and so I do personally love Enneagram. There's a book that I read that is a very comprehensive book on it and this has just been a really cool exercise. And also, the community group or friend group that I'm part of, the group I'm closest with here in Austin, we use this together all the time. So, we talk about it from the standpoint of like families, what's your spouse, and then how are you going to show up, and how do you interact with your kids, and how do you interact with other couples? It's really neat, but I am a seven and I believe... 

Susan Drumm: As I am too. 

Justin Donald: Yeah. Well, I'm not surprised. 

Susan Drumm: So, Type 7 is the enthusiastic visionary. And what I would say let's start with Type 7 since we both are. So, Type 7 is always looking at possibilities. What could go right? What are the opportunities here? And with that, they're able to pull together information in a way that others may not see. They tend to be multidisciplinary. I mean, you just look at my background with acting and law and PCG consulting and leadership development and pull it together in a way that make connections that others may not see. But also, the drawback could be maybe not seeing what could go wrong or not processing or dealing with negative emotions to get the information that those give you so you can make better choices in the future. So, in terms of investing, a Type 7 might be seeing all the potential opportunities and maybe not assessing the risk as well as they should be. And often I say if you want to pay attention to that piece, but also perhaps you have either a friend, if you're independent, or you have a partner that could be a Type 6 that will help balance you out. So, the Type 6 is the loyal skeptic and they're always troubleshooting what could go wrong, right, looking for what are the potential drawbacks. They have trouble actually taking action potentially on what could go right. And together, you're a dynamite combination. 

Justin Donald: Yeah. And that makes sense because my main attorney that I run everything through is a 6, is super skeptical about everything. And he always says to me, "Justin, you can't look at things as if everything's going right and it's going to work and just prove it." He says, "You have to look at every deal as if everything's going to go wrong and then prove why it's not." And so, that was really unique feedback that allowed me to start looking at investments in a different light but I couldn't agree with you more. I think that that is tremendous. 

Susan Drumm: Yes. I think it's great for every 7 to have a friend or a resource that is a Type 6 to check. I have a good friend who is a Type 6 and I'm like, "Am I correct? This is what I'm thinking. But tell me, what do you see? What do you see? Because I know I'm missing something," and she does. 

Justin Donald: That's great. That's awesome. What are some of the other common ones that we can walk through? I love hearing this. 

Susan Drumm: Yes. So, as I was taking my little notes here, so Type 1 is the perfectionist or sometimes called the principled reformer, and they're very focused on getting things right, doing it the right way. Very ethical, very conscientious. Can be critical as well. You know, sometimes everything has to be it's not worth doing if it's not done right. And so, if you apply that to investing can be really focused on what is the exact process that I can use to get it right. And they can have nice, repeatable processes or standard operating procedures because of that. And that's a gift that they'll bring to the investing. However, they could also get caught up in wanting it to be so perfect that they don't take the leap of faith that's required like the 80-20 rule, like good enough. This is good to go. We need to take a risk. So, that's sort of, again, their strength and where they could get stuck in the investing piece. 

Justin Donald: Yeah. I think that's awesome. And there are definitely some of the categories that are just a full-blown action-taker. So, that seems like that would be a real good combo with them. Someone is going to move forward, but it's good that they have some systems in place just to protect them. 

Susan Drumm: Yes, absolutely. So, a good pairing with that might be the Type 3. The Type 3 is the competitive achiever or sometimes called the productive performer, and they love competition. It's all about winning and it's all about doing things the most efficiently way possible, get into action now. And they don't want anybody wasting their time. They want to go. And so, where they would be pushing the Type 1 to get into action, make it happen, that's good enough, let's go. And their love of winning could make them amazing, amazing investors and love it because it's very clear when you're investing, are you winning or you're losing? And Type 3s love that. They want to have a very clear indicator, am I winning or am I not? 

Justin Donald: That's great. I love that. That's so fun and it's great to just think about there is a downside or a drawback to every single one of these. So, how do you make yourself stronger and better and smarter? And that comes from community. It comes from other people that can balance out your strengths and weaknesses in a way that the one plus one equals three. And I think that that's so cool. 

Susan Drumm: Yes. That's how it's so helpful for teams, because now, rather than getting annoyed by the person who's very different from you, you can build stronger empathy to understand what they're driven by. And together you can create something much better. I even call it cognitive diversity. You want cognitive diversity. You want cognitive diversity in your relationships, in your friendships, and in your teams, and in the workplace. And that's really what we use this tool to promote. 

Justin Donald: That's cool. What about a 9? This is what I'm interested in because my wife's a 9. 

Susan Drumm: Oh, okay. 

Justin Donald: Yeah, I'm curious to hear what you have to say there. 

Susan Drumm: Yes. So, the 9 is called some terms were the peacemaker or the mediator. Modest mediator would be a term. And so, great team players, really good at listening to others' perspectives and points of view and sometimes don't know their own point of view until they heard everyone. They're great at drawing people in like, "Let's hear from Charlie or let's hear from Sarah," and wanting to make sure that people get recognition for what they've done. But with that, the drawback may be they don't trust their own gut or they'll also be hesitant to step out and take a risk. And so, that's why they're listening for everyone else to see what their own point of view is. So, the work we do with the 9 and I would say with investing is to work on building up that intuition. What's your gut telling you before you listen to everyone else? Because you could be swayed. And so, a Type 9 could be swayed by others' opinions as opposed to really going with what's within their heart or their gut or their head. 

Justin Donald: Yeah. And that just kind of confirms the value for a 9 for everyone, of course, but for a 9 per peer group, right? Make sure that you are surrounded by really smart people. I always talk about if you want to raise your game, if you want to get better professionally, if you want to live a life that is more exciting, more inspiring, more productive than hang around people that do that and just watch magically, it will naturally happen. It's just a byproduct of the people you spend the most time with. And it's cool having an assessment like this where you can really figure out, hey, who can kind of help complete the person I am or the person that I want to be? Who can hold me accountable to the things that I want to do? And then who can be a partner with me and celebrate the ups and who can be a caretaker to me and make me feel alright during the downs? 

Susan Drumm: Yes, exactly. Exactly. 

Justin Donald: That's cool. Well, I want to encourage all of our listeners and viewers that if you haven't taken the Enneagram to do it and to kind of apply those and really take a look at who's in your peer group, obviously your spouse, even your kids, and get a chance to see what that looks like and see combined what you are as a unit and figure out where your blind spots could be. Because we're talking about investing right here but we could be talking about lifestyle, right? I mean, someone that doesn't take action on investments is probably not going to take action readily on the life that they want to live. Someone that's unsure of next steps might be hesitant to get out of their comfort zone and take the step in the right direction or to write down what it is that they want. Someone that maybe is just full-blown taking action isn't taking the time to write down what it looks like, what's the vision, and what are the steps to get there, and how do we do it in an efficient manner and not just bulldozing? 

Susan Drumm: Yes. And here's a little tip. When you do do this work with the Enneagram and you think about who are the people in your life you most need, the place to look is the model itself. And that is the wing styles. They call them wings, which means the numbers on either side of you. So, since we're both 7s, those numbers, the people we want, particularly in our lives, are the Type 6 and the Type 8. Those can give great perspectives to you. There's something they can see that you can't see but also there's something called the arrow lines. And if you look at the diagram of the Enneagram, it's got all these sort of crisscrossing lines in between. And those provide even very vast differences of opinion to you. And for the Type 7, it's Type 1, the perfectionist that we talked about, and Type 5, which is the quiet observer or specialist. And each of those have something to teach you but those are the people that to make the best decisions you want to almost call on those consultants, so to speak. And creating a community of those being intentional about that is really where I see the direction of how Enneagram 3 will be used in the future and building teams that way. 

Justin Donald: Yeah. That makes sense. I'm curious if you can quickly go through the ones that we didn't cover, I believe 2, 4, and 8, if my memory serves me correctly. 

Susan Drumm: Yes. So, Type 2 is the strategic supporter or considerate helper and they are great, obviously, as the name says at helping others. Almost, I would say the Selfless Givers group that we started with, that's a Type 2 organization. How can I support you? How can I help? And so, they're always giving, looking for ways to support others but their drawback could be maybe not tending to their own needs as much or taking on so much that they lose sight of their own priorities. And so, in terms of investing, they'll look for ways. They might look for opportunities to help others through investing or perhaps they'll look for types of investments that help others and want to get involved in that but they may get a little bit overwhelmed if they're trying to also help invest for Uncle Fred and Cousin Sue and all those other things. So, it's like balancing these two things, I think, is what the Type 2 needs to do. 

Justin Donald: That's good. That's just great to be aware of. And it's so fun hearing these because I keep thinking of people. It's like, "Oh yeah, they're a Type 2." I mean, that's so fun when you can kind of figure out who in your network is a different number than you. It's very easy to connect with those that are the same number as you. You just see eye-to-eye on so much stuff, conversation flows. 

Susan Drumm: Yes. I always say, yes, you can have a team that has mostly the same Enneagram type and you won't have any arguments, but you also may not be as effective as you want to be. Right? 

Justin Donald: Right. That's right. No doubt. What about 4s? 

Susan Drumm: So, Type 4 is the authentic creative or intense creative and these are people who are very focused on purpose and meaning in life. They tend to have an artistic flair to them. So, there's some creativity piece, but they're so good at finding what is the meaning behind something or what is the purpose of this or what's the emotional thread. And so, my sense is if I had to apply that to investing, is looking at types of investments that are going to bring deeper meaning and purpose to people's lives and wanting to focus on those types of companies. If they can't see that thread, they're not going to be as interested in it. But the drawback or let's just say the potential watch out for them is they can suffer from envy or feel like they're missing out or they were left behind and get caught up in that or kind of seeing the dark side of that of their own insecurities or doubts. So, really trying to focus on the purpose and meaning in their gift would be the best way for them and not get caught up on what they missed out on in terms of investing. Look forward. 

Justin Donald: Yeah. That's interesting. I enjoy learning about each of these and just again, plucking people from my network. It's like, "Oh, that makes so much sense. I get it. I get the way you're looking at it. I get why you have a hard time making this move or that step or connecting these dots." So, that's cool. Now, I've got a really good friend that's an 8, so I'm excited to learn more and have our audience hear more about 8s. 

Susan Drumm: Yeah. So, Type 8 is the powerful challenger or sometimes called the active controller. Big presence people. They, in fact, such big presence that they might intimidate others with their presence. They're very sure of themselves. They're very direct, candid, you know where you stand with an 8, which makes them trustworthy in that way. And so, I just saw the garbage can go by, so make sure that the pick up here. And so, the Type 8 is so good at that ability to see the big picture that I think that makes them really great investors from that standpoint. They'll see the big picture, be able to what are the common macro trends that I need to be part of, and get on board with? But they also might want to delegate. They don't like to necessarily get in the weeds. So, they're best if they have somebody that says, "Here are the macro trends. Now, you go execute the trades or something of that nature." If they have someone to delegate to that they can lead, even better. 

Justin Donald: Yeah. And that makes all the sense in the world because my friend I was referring to, he's one of the most successful people I know and he's just done well in everything he's ever done. And that's it.  It's so fascinating. It's just spot on. And it's interesting when you get this down, this gives you a leg up. It gives you a leg up in the way that you interact on a personal level. It gives you a leg up in the way that you interact professionally, the way that you see yourself, that you can recognize your blind spots, that you can proceed in a way that you can ensure your success more by pulling in people to support you, as you said, having these wings and recognizing where you need help and also just getting really good and even better at the things you're already good at. 

Susan Drumm: Yes, exactly. Get better at that, know who to bring in, and work on the areas that you may not see. So, now I force myself to go, "Well, what could potentially go wrong here? Let me take some time out to really look at that," because my natural inclination is just to look at all the potential opportunities and possibilities. 

Justin Donald: I love it. Well, this to me is equipping a very healthy and wealthy lifestyle and mindset. And you and I talked earlier today about this and so much of building wealth. And again, when I say building wealth, I'm talking about all facets of it. I'm not just talking about money, but I am talking financials. I'm also talking health and I'm talking about that from a spiritual standpoint, from an emotional, intellectual standpoint, a physical standpoint, living your purpose, and using your gifts standpoint. I mean, it really breaks down into so many categories, but it's such a mindset type of thing. And when you can really kind of adapt that mindset, surround yourself with other people that support a better, stronger, healthier mindset when you're just in a community with people that play the game of life at a higher level or have a better discipline or have a different way of viewing things, you tend to operate that way and it rubs off on you. And I'd love to hear your perspective on that because you have just been around so many successful, high-level, well-known people, entrepreneurs, and executives. I'd love to know your perspective. 

Susan Drumm: Yes. It's fascinating what I really believe and I see it happen, what you believe you create. So, if you can't believe it, it's going to be very unlikely you're going to be able to create it. And the power of visualization in that is so important. There's two things that you need to think about and we work with leaders on. One is visualizing or getting clarity on what it is that you want, but also what's the emotions that you want as a result of that? And how can you feel those now? Because if you're feeling a lack of something, then what's going to kind of come back to you is the lack of that thing or the absence of it. So, a lot of times getting clarity on what is it, what is the end state you're really looking for? Not really end state, but let's say what the next goal is. For instance, by the end of 2021, what do you want to see in your life? What do you want to see in your business? And how do you want to feel as a result of that? Okay. Great. Now, let's work back. Based on those, how can you bring that emotional state to you now and do everything you do infused with that? That's a lot of the work that we're doing now because that emotional state is really what creates and also manifests. So, it's not just the visualization. It's both getting it in the heart. It's sort of getting it in the head, visualizing it, and getting in the heart with emotions. 

Justin Donald: And what are some practical steps that people can take around this? Because our audience is probably, I mean, certainly many of our audience are going to be target market for you but everyone, to a certain degree, is target market for this content and for moving their life in the direction. I always talk about like taking some form of action to move in the direction that you want to go. And if you don't have a clear vision of what it is, it's going to be really hard to go where you want to go. You're going to go by default. You're going to go by, you know, just whoever's around you and whatever people you're saying yes to or instead of like creating your possibilities and creating your opportunities. But I'm curious what some practical, actionable items are. 

Susan Drumm: Yes. So, here's something I do every year. I've been doing it since 2012 and it's almost magical how this thing works but I create the list of experiences that I want to have for the next year as opposed to doing New Year's resolutions or something like that. And I do it by category. So, I write down what are the experiences I want to have in my career? What are the experiences I want to have with my family? What are the experience that I'd love to have with, let's say, personal growth? What do I want to break through with this year? And detailing that out and I write that all down, and I’m not one of these people that's going to keep looking at it every week, "Oh, am I getting there? Am I getting there?" To me, that's a little bit like putting a seed in the ground and like, "Are you growing? Are you growing? I don't know. What's coming up now?" But let's say about halfway through the year, I'll check-in and notice how many things have started to come. And honestly, even without putting detailed plans and goals together, on average, two-thirds to three-fourths of those things on that list do come true. And they may not come true that year, but they come through the following year. And I've seen that time after time with other people that I work with in addition to my own. It works for me. So, I always like to walk the talk and do it for me. And it does. 

Justin Donald: That's awesome. Same thing. I've been doing this for years, I mean, over a decade where I have everything mapped out. In fact, I talk about this a little bit in my book where I give like a preview of like the freedom vision and the checklist of kind of what you want in your life. But I have a full-blown, you know, it's a pretty comprehensive exercise that I do with my spouse, my wife, and we just kind of plan out the year. It's just fantastic. And we feel so good when we're done but it's a full-day activity and it takes a little bit of prep time. I offer it. Actually, it's one of the free resources when people do get a chance to read through the book, which is cool. And I can only imagine that you have been able to really dissect this from the standpoint of how do I optimize this for me? How do I optimize it? You know, how do I take this plan? I know how I'm wired. You know how you're wired, but how do you make it and optimize it for those that you're in community with? I think it's just cool that you can do that. 

Susan Drumm: Yeah. One thing you can do with that when you talk about optimization, I think about an optimized life is living your true values, your core values, and they may differ as by Enneagram type from others. And so, a way to figure out what those values are is maybe to think about what are you grateful for from 2020? Now, 2020 was a hard year and some may say there's not a lot to be grateful for, but if you look closely, there is. And you'll find when you create that list and that's part of this exercise is you create that list of what you're grateful for, you can pick out why are you grateful for that. There is some value that got honored in that. And that's how I create and I help clients create their core values. And based on those core values now, looking ahead, what do you want to create that will honor those values in each of those areas that I mentioned before, career life, personal growth, and friends? How do you want that value to be honored this year? And so, that's another little trick that I find that's so helpful in the visualization process. 

Justin Donald: It's so good. And when you are showing gratitude, you cannot experience some of the other emotions of feeling helpless or you can't really be a victim when you're spending time writing down and even thinking about all the things that you're grateful for. So, I love that. I love that you do that. In fact, I had Hal Elrod on my podcast a few episodes ago, and he's just the master at this. He's just such a great soul. But his whole message is showing gratitude for anyone and everyone and I love that you incorporate that. And in fact, that leads me to a really fun question because I know this is a new and exciting year for you. I actually want to know what you're most excited about because this is a year of change for you. This is a year of new opportunities, new beginnings. And obviously, you're doing a lot of the same things that you are an expert at but you are introducing and opening up a new chapter of your life, and I'd love to hear more about it. 

Susan Drumm: Yes. So, we are and I am, and my team are launching a show called The Enlightened Executive, and it's both a YouTube and podcast and the focus of it. Again, using that line I told you before, your personal evolution sparks your leadership evolution. What I noticed is entrepreneurs and executives that I work with are hungry for groundbreaking techniques that help them grow personally and professionally. And so, each week we focus on one of these groundbreaking techniques because I've kind of been a curator of these over the years. I mean, Enneagram is just one. There are so, so many that I'm always learning about the new thing and bringing it to my clients and I said, "I ought to create a show on this." So, each week, we're going to cover a different topic and we've got some of the initial shows are focusing on the power of focus and how not to get distracted, and how to help your team not get distracted from a former Hindu monk teaching the power of concentration and focus. We've got some episodes on artificial intelligence and how that's going to transform so many things and how not to be afraid of it, but how to embrace that change and how to win in your career as AI comes on to the fore. 

We've got things on the Enneagram, as I just mentioned. We even have an episode that's fascinating, a guy who's an expert at face reading. And so, face reading is a technique. It's an ancient technique that is used in some Asian business communities as well, particularly that's where he was trained but he goes all over the world and he goes into businesses and can tell when people are lying, when they're congruent. And it's beyond body language. It's something about micro-expressions in your face. He can tell, I mean, it's almost like a fortune teller-esqe. But one of the things that he told me, just to give you an idea about this, the insights you get on the show is if you're in China and there's more than three people at the table on the Chinese side, that one of them is likely a face reader because it's that prevalent. And I had no idea. 

Justin Donald: I did not either. That's unbelievable. It's incredible. 

Susan Drumm: Yes. Yes. So, I'm bringing eastern, western techniques, all sorts of things together, but really excited about the show. It's called The Enlightened Executive and this is my way to not only interview incredibly interesting people and what they do, but also the executives who swear by them based on what is something that you've really found to be helpful, and let's get the word out on that to help others and build the community of enlightened execs and entrepreneurs. That's what I hope to do. People that are hungry for this type of information and bring it to you. 

Justin Donald: I love you say that you hope to do it. You're already doing it. It's not a matter of hoping. I mean, you've been in action on this for the majority of your professional life, which is so cool. But I love seeing an actual place that people can go and they can learn. I mean, you charge an incredible amount for what you do. I mean, you are highly regarded in the business community. And so, now people can get it for free. They can listen in on these conversations that you're having, similar to the one that we just had today. I just am so excited and I believe you launched pretty soon, right? 

Susan Drumm: Yes. Next week is the launch. So, that's why I use it in the future tense but maybe when this goes out, it might be past tense. But, yes, exactly, and this shouldn't be something that just the billionaire clients who hire me have information to. So, this is a broader - it's more of a movement and that's what I noticed in circles. People are asking me about these things, we're talking about them, and let's just create a platform to make that more widely available for those who are interested in growth. 

Justin Donald: I love it. I think that's so cool. And you mentioned here that you've got several clients, they're billionaires. And this is something that I really love making clear to people because there are so many people out there, they're like, "Oh, yeah, if I just had more money, I'd be happy." But that's not the case. I mean, there are so many people that are very financially wealthy. They do well financially and they are some of the most angry and unpleasant people that you've ever met and you can meet other people that are maybe nowhere close to where they want to be financially, but they're pleasant and they're wonderful. And so, it's just a great reminder. And by the way, we should also realize that just because someone makes a lot of money, even though they're in kind of today's day and age, they're kind of made out to be maybe a horrible person, there are wonderful people too that do great things that have worked hard to build a great net worth. And so, I'd be curious, just some of your perspective of the clients that you've worked with, some of these high net worth individuals. I mean, I'm sure some have an incredible lifestyle but I'm actually pretty sure some don't. And the key to achieving the life that you want, I mean, sure, money solves financial problems, but it will not solve all your problems. I'd love your perspective on that. You have probably talked to and just really been around more people in this billionaire category than most people will ever get to in their life. 

Susan Drumm: Yeah. It's fascinating to see the range of how money is not the determining factor of the level of happiness of the people that I work with. And for those who are wanting something more for their lives, that's where we go back to the values and where in their life do they feel their values aren't being honored and how could they have that be honored and use their resources to help make that happen, that's one piece. But ultimately, the deeper work that I'm doing, and this is leading into the book that I'll be launching, is we all have a wound from childhood. We all have something that happened to us. And it's both our blessing and our curse. Usually, it's our blessing because it's fueled us to do something different or to be a different way. Maybe I'm not going to be like my dad in this way or I'm not going to be like my mom in this way. At the same time, if we're always running from not being like them or like something that happened in our family, we're never really creating what we're running to. And that's why I say that visualization, that getting clear on the values it's far more powerful to make clear what you're running to versus what you're running from. And each of these, when you've got sort of this I call it a childhood wound, but it's like a statement like I'm not enough or I'm abandoned or whatever happened, what I found is if you don't do the work to heal that, it just gets keep playing out in the workplace over and over and over. And that's basically the work you do. So, even in the billionaire category, it's like what needs to get healed so that you don't keep recreating it or running from it and you're running towards something that's a far more meaningful mission that will get you out of that loop and of unhappiness. 

Justin Donald: That is so fascinating. Thanks for sharing that and really just thanks for spending time with us here today. I really appreciate it, Susan. I'm curious, where can our listeners and our viewers find you online? 

Susan Drumm: Yes. So, definitely go to EnlightenedExec.com. It's on all on both podcast and on YouTube so you'll see those there to check out. The consulting arm is MeritageLeadership.com. So, find me in both those places. 

Justin Donald: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining us. And I just want to remind our viewers and our listeners one more time, as I do at the end of every episode, take some form of action today, move one step closer to a life that you desire and not just settle with a life by default. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next week.

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