Interview with Roland Frasier
Retiring Early, Buying Companies With No Money Down, and Scaling Smarter with Roland Frasier
You’ll be hard-pressed to find someone who knows more about buying, scaling, and exiting companies than today’s guest, Roland Frasier, one of the most creative and intelligent minds in business.
Roland is the co-founder and/or principal of 5 different Inc. Magazine’s fastest-growing companies, and a serial entrepreneur who has built or sold over 24 businesses with adjusted sales ranging from $3 million to just under $4 billion. Roland also advises business owners on leveraging, growing, scaling, and exiting their companies.
He specializes in creative deal structuring and low and no money down acquisitions. Roland is a master in adding value, growing, scaling, and selling the businesses he acquires for as much as 200 times his initial investment.
In our conversation, we go over his strategies for acquiring companies with no money out of pocket, why relationships are the most important currency, and how to leverage debt to buy and scale any business to a multi-million dollar value.
Featured on This Episode: Roland Frasier
✅ What he does: Roland Frasier is the co-founder and/or principal of multiple Inc. Magazine fastest-growing companies. He is a serial entrepreneur who founded, scaled, or sold over two dozen different businesses ranging from digital commerce to consumer products to industrial machine manufacturing companies, with adjusted sales ranging from $3 million to just under $4 billion. Roland is currently CEO of the War Room Mastermind and principal in DigitalMarketer.com, Traffic & Conversion Summit, Praxio.com, Plattr.com, TruConversion.com, and Real Estate Worldwide. Through War Room, he advises over 150 major companies on digitally-centric customer acquisition, monetization, referral, retention, revenue, and growth strategies. Roland began his business career selling real estate when he was 18 and gradually moved into real estate syndication and business investments. After law school, he started his own law practice and grew it to one of the top firms in San Diego, providing services to entrepreneurs, business owners, marketing, and entertainment industry clients. Roland has been featured in Entrepreneur, Forbes, Money, Business Insider, Fast Company, and on major television networks.
💬 Words of wisdom: “You can’t have great success long-term without some overarching strategy.” – Roland Frasier
🔎 Where to find Roland Frasier: LinkedIn | Twitter | Facebook | Instagram | TikTok
Key Takeaways with Roland Frasier
- How Roland got inspired to get into real estate at just 16 and the steps he made to be financially free before he turned 20.
- How Roland first learned about leveraged buyouts and how he used those skills to generate an extra $1.8 million in profits in his first deal.
- The importance of having gratitude for what you already have and finding the work you GET to do, not work that you HAVE to do.
- Surround yourself with people that are ahead of you and soak up the knowledge. Roland is part of nine (!) Masterminds that provide members with the opportunity to uplevel their businesses in every way.
- Learn Roland‘s impressive networking strategy that got him into business with Daymond John and William Shatner.
- How Roland leverages debt to acquire companies and his strategy for scaling them and paying out those debts.
- Why multi-billion dollar companies rely on strategy, and businesses that fail rely on tactics. You need both for long-term success!
- The strategies (“five-buys”) that Roland uses to acquire businesses with no money down that he applied to over two dozen companies valued between $3M and $4B.
Roland Frasier | Leveraged Buyouts: A Better Strategy To Acquire New Businesses
Roland Frasier Tweetables“Business is this big continual book training session, a seminar that we get to participate in that’s always raising our level.” - @RolandFrasier Click To Tweet “Equity is the most expensive form of capital you’ll ever generate.” - @RolandFrasier Click To Tweet
- Roland Frasier Website
- Business Lunch Podcast
- Roland Frasier on LinkedIn | Twitter | Facebook | Instagram | TikTok
- Epic Network
- Epic Network 5-Day Challenge
- War Room Mastermind
- Modern Marketing Mastermind
- Chateau Cheval Blanc
- Chateau Mouton Rothschild
- Chateau Haut-Brion
- Chateau Margaux
- Chateau Lafite Rothschild
- Chateau d’Yquem
- Opus One
- Chateau La Croix
- Single Thread Farms
- The French Laundry
- Nothing Down How to Buy Real Estate with Little or No Money Down by Robert G. Allen
- Hollywood Charity Horse Show
- Shoe Dog: A Memoir by the Creator of Nike by Phil Knight
- Shoemaker: The Untold Story of the British Family Firm that Became a Global Brand by Joe Foster
- Buy Then Build: How Acquisition Entrepreneurs Outsmart the Startup Game by Walker Deibel
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Read the Full Transcript with Roland Frasier
Justin Donald: All right, Roland, so good to have you on the show. Welcome.
Roland Frasier: Hey, thanks for having me, Justin. I appreciate it.
Justin Donald: Yeah, we’ve got several mutual friends, and I’ve just heard so many great things about you. And obviously, we’ve known each other from a distance. I was on your show, now, having you on mine, and I’ve had a chance to see you speak at a few different things. And so, I’m excited to kind of dig in and unpack who you are, your story, all the cool stuff that you’re doing because I cannot go anywhere in the business world and not hear about you.
Roland Frasier: Oh, likewise. It’s a good thing. It’s nice that we finally got together to talk in person instead of being talked about with each other.
Justin Donald: That’s right. Well, I remember one time I was in San Diego hanging with Mike Koenigs, and we were going to try and connect. I think you’re out of the country, maybe on a wine trip. And then I know you just got back from Napa, which is one of my favorite places in the US to go.
Roland Frasier: I did. And thank you for the connection to Mario as well.
Justin Donald: My pleasure. Well, he is one of my favorite people to hang with, my personal sommelier, and just so knowledgeable. He’s the master at finding deals that if you want to turn around and flip it, you could. But it’s just nice sitting on something where you’re getting it way undervalue.
Roland Frasier: Right.
Justin Donald: And when we went to Bordeaux, I mean, he hooked it up. It was just an incredible experience. And I know you’re about to go there next month.
Roland Frasier: I am, yeah. And I have him on my list of people to call.
Justin Donald: That’s awesome. Any places you, for sure, are going to go to when in Bordeaux?
Roland Frasier: I got connected to the people at Chateau Pavie. So, I know we’ll be at Pavie and Cheval Blanc. And then, I think we already are in at Mouton Rothschild and Haut-Brion. I’m still working on Margaux and Lafite and a couple of the others.
Justin Donald: That’s awesome. Well, Mouton is one of my favorites. And if you’re already going to Cheval Blanc, the same guy that’s the president there is the president of Chateau d’Yquem, so maybe see if you can connect the dots there or Mario can help.
Roland Frasier: Yeah. We went to d’Yquem last time. That’s a beautiful place. It feels old, but it feels very French provincial, kind of. And they’ve got that nice big old tree out there, and it’s good. And I feel bad because I’m on their allocation list, but it’s just like that wine is so sweet. It’s hard to buy it in any quantity and think you’re ever going to get it.
And then, I can only– like because normally, you’re getting a 750, right? So, it’s hard to drink unless you’ve got a party of eight or ten. And so, it’s like everything has to connect to make that lineup. But it’s a great wine and a beautiful, beautiful place. And I think their Y wine is actually pretty good too.
Justin Donald: The Y is my favorite because I’m not much of a sweet drinker. I don’t really even like dessert wines, ports, that’s not my thing. It’s just too sweet for me, but their Y is awesome. I love that one. I think that’s their best one to me. And it’s nice that it’s– I think they’re lowest priced of any of their wines.
Roland Frasier: It’s basically free compared to the one that they’re popular for.
Justin Donald: No kidding. And then where were you in Napa?
Roland Frasier: Napa, I had some business up there, but we got to sit down with Chris Maybach. Maybach, that was pretty cool. And then we hung out at Verité and Promontory and Bond, Abreu, and I went to Opus. I hadn’t been to Opus since it opened, so they built on an addition in everything. So, it was kind of cool to go in and visit there. And I’m probably forgetting one or two.
I’ve got a buddy that owns a restaurant up there, and so, we’ll sit down and he’ll have like when they’re doing their Burgundy Bordeaux by which they were doing this time, so I’ll sit down with them and the distributors will all come in and we’ll taste 60, 70 wines, which I feel really bad because they’re pouring these glasses, I’m like please pour very small, but they’re like giving you these decent pours and you just can’t drink it. So, you’ve got these Grand Cru, beautiful Burgundian wines, and you pour them into the dump bucket and it just feels bad, but you just can’t do it.
Justin Donald: Well, you know if they do it that it’s not– I mean, I feel like it’s pour form as well because it’s like, oh, it’s hard to dump this good stuff out. Maybe that’s why I got into some trouble times where I haven’t dumped it out.
Roland Frasier: Right.
Justin Donald: But it’s hard to let go of a good one.
Roland Frasier: It is. Oh, and we went to La Croix. I hadn’t seen the new La Croix place up on Spring Mountain since they moved out of Cardinal. So, I got to check that out, too. As a matter of fact, Promontory too, I went when Promontory was just launching back in ‘08 and ‘09, and they’d moved from the Founder’s Room over by Meadowood up into their own facility there, too, so it was nice to get to see that. So, I kind of got to reconnect with some of the places that I hadn’t been or that had moved or expanded, and that was pretty fun. And Verite’s new place is just beautiful.
I also checked out the Montage up in Healdsburg, which I had heard really good things about, and Single Thread, which is, I guess, the newest three Michelin star restaurant up there. So, that was great and kind of a contrast. We went to French Laundry as well. And man, like you can tell, Single Thread is the newer style. And it was amazing and beautiful and very light, which was also nice. But I’ll tell you, at French Laundry, I probably had the best French Laundry meal that I’ve had in all the times I’ve been. So, it was just a great trip overall.
Justin Donald: That is amazing. Well, my last trip to Napa, we also went to French Laundry, and Keller came and hung out with us for a bit. We did a wine cellar tour and ate in that one room that opens to the courtyard, their private room, which I’m sure you’ve been in before. And it was the best meal I’ve ever had there, so that was cool.
And then we went to Single Thread as well and that just blew our mind because it’s like food art. The food is delicious, but it’s like an artistic creation. Sometimes, you don’t even know on these platters that what it is is actually food that you’re going to be eating. It’s just that beautiful.
Roland Frasier: Yeah. And they do a really good job. I think they do, like most of the Michelin places that are the three stars have really invested in the plate art as well, and that’s something Single Thread, I think, just knocked it out of the park on. And French laundry’s very, very, very simple and minimalistic in the design of the plating, but the way they’re cooking, and I forget it’s like adobe is what I want to say, but it’s like some other French name that they cook the fish and stuff in, in the pots, and then on the spread, when you walk in, they’ve got it like all laid out ready with food. That’s I’m sure one of the things you’re talking about because you walk in and there’s this centerpiece and you look at it, you go, oh, that’s really cool. And then you’re like, wait a minute, there’s little tiny plates on there. And then there’s all this cool stuff and that then they come up and they’re like, there’s 15 different things to try on that centerpiece. And then it just goes on and on and on.
And I love all the different plates that they’ve designed and acquired and stuff like that. So, I think that’s a great experience. But man, it’s so funny because I think with all of the farming that goes on up there, and then because of all the wine, it attracts all of the foodies, that place is just a very, very special place.
Justin Donald: It is. It is hard, I mean, it’s always been kind of hard to get in to French Laundry. I mean, it’s just as hard, if not harder, to get into Single Thread, and then it’s also a bed and breakfast. And so, to get even an overnight there is incredibly challenging because it’s so small.
Roland Frasier: Yeah, I think they’re like five rooms. It’s very tiny.
Justin Donald: But it is just a beautiful place. And yeah, it’s a long meal, right? It’s like a four-hour meal, but you’re not stuffed like you are at some of these other ones because it’s just not as hearty of dishes. So, it’s just a really cool experience.
Roland Frasier: Yeah, we were actually lucky because in San Diego, the highest one we have here is a two-star called Addison and we’ve been there, and man, every time, it’s five and a half, even six hours, which means it’s insanely long. I think three and a half is kind of my high-end expectation for time at a three-star, but both of the restaurants, Single Thread was about two and a half hours total, and same thing for French Laundry. And so, for me, that’s a perfect pacing because you’re having some wine and having conversation, but sitting in the same place for two and a half, three and a half, four and a half hours, it’s a long, long time.
Justin Donald: Yeah, for sure. Well, I’m glad that you made it to Opus One. That’s one that’s on my list every time I’m in town. And for anyone watching, anyone listening, if you have not asked them to go into their library to give you different samples and tastings, they will do that. This is not normal. They don’t just roll it out. But if you requested, you can go back and drink some of their age 10, 15, 20-year-old wine that is just drinking beautifully. I mean, you’ve got to pay for it and it’s pricey, but it’s worth it. And every time, we do it.
Yeah, very cool. Well, besides the fact that you are incredibly knowledgeable in wine, I know you’re knowledgeable on so many other things, and I’m excited to jump in. And one of the cool things I saw in your story that reminds me a lot of when I grew up is I got a job really early on. I became very independent, very early on. I got my first job when I was in seventh grade, and by high school, I was covering everything, right? So, my parents, I didn’t need them to buy me anything. In your instance, your situation, you actually moved out. You were on your own at 16.
Roland Frasier: Yep.
Justin Donald: Totally independent. How did that happen?
Roland Frasier: I don’t know. I mean, nothing bad. It was actually I had a great childhood and everything, so it’s just I think that I was doing real estate, I was playing in a band, I was going to school. And so, there was just an opportunity with– there were extra houses around because of all that stuff. And so, I had the opportunity to do that.
My parents had divorced several years before, and so, they were kind of doing their own thing. And it was just so many things going on. I was just really busy, and it just seemed like it made sense. I had the opportunity and I had a lot of bandmates that lived in band houses. So, I was used to seeing people that were doing that kind of stuff.
Most of my friends were older because I played in bands, and so, my friends were in their late 20s and early 30s, and because I played keyboards and it was kind of hard to find keyboard players, and so, I always had an easy time getting in. And then all my friends ended up being old and drinking and having fun, and so, you kind of just needed it.
Justin Donald: That’s awesome. And it sounds like you were in a band until your 40s, which is really cool that music is that important. You have just such a desire, such a passion for it. I think that’s awesome.
And professionally, I feel like you are kind of self-taught in a lot of things, but you also have really gone niche in a lot of areas too. So, before we get to the business tycoon that you are, the serial entrepreneur, it wasn’t always that way. So, I think you start out in real estate, maybe becoming a realtor, and I’m curious to hear the story of how you kind of transitioned and pivoted from a young guy wanting to get into the business world to fully being in the business world.
Roland Frasier: Yeah, I was really fortunate. My father was an investor and a tax attorney, and he had come up from nothing. My grandfather was a Baptist minister, never had any money, but was always moving from place to place as he ministered to different areas. And so, my father was one of the few people besides my grandfather that actually even graduated high school in my whole family across both sides. And he had a conversation with me.
So, I had the influence of seeing he was a tax attorney, still is a tax attorney. And so, I got to see lots of entrepreneurs because the kinds of people that come, he wasn’t really a big corporate tax attorney. He had his own firm with some other people and he handled mostly entrepreneurial-type people. So, when I’m growing up, I’m meeting all of these businesspeople who are doing everything from they own a gold mine, they own racehorses, they have a business that’s a software-based business or a chain of record stores or whatever.
And I’m like, this is really cool. These people, most of them don’t wear suits. They come in and they’ve got all these interesting things that they’re doing and they seem kind of cool. And I want to do that, I want to be like that. And then I would ask my dad, I was like, you know what? What do you think is important to be able to do that? And he was a CPA and an attorney, and so, he just said, well, I’ll tell you one thing. He said, if you don’t know what you want to do, but you know you like business, then consider getting a degree in accounting and going to law school because he said, I use my accounting every day, knowing how to read a financial statement, knowing how the business works through the three primary things that drive a business from cash flow and profit and assets all the way through understanding the law and particularly how taxes work because taxes can make and break deals.
And I was like, okay, well that makes sense. I don’t know what I want to be when I grow up. I do enjoy playing music, but I don’t think I’m going to be a rock star. I think my chances of that are going to be longer odds than I want to play. So, although one of the guys I played guitar with went on to have like multiple platinum albums and be in some big metal hair band for several years. So, I decided to do that.
And then I was like, well, he was a big real estate investor. And so, when I was kind of, I think I was just like 16 in the back of his car that he would always have some either set of cassette tapes that he was listening to or a book. And one of the books he introduced me to was Robert Allen’s Nothing Down. And I started reading it. I was like, you can buy real estate with no money. That’s crazy. I can’t believe that. That’s ridiculous.
And at the time, interest rates were relatively high. And so, Bob’s book is talking about these 6% loans. And I was like, that’s never going to be at 6% again. So, it’s really funny that they’re like half of that, or at least recently were. So, that, like I got really obsessed with that and with real estate and decided, okay, well, I’ll get my real estate license, but I couldn’t do that until I was 18.
So, shortly after my 18th birthday, I went down, took the real estate exam, got my license, and then was like, okay, I’m going to start doing this real estate stuff. And I started doing it. I hung my license with somebody that he introduced me to. And I’m going around talking to people about listing their properties on it. This sucks, this is awful. I don’t want to do this.
And so, I was like, well, who can I talk to that has lots and lots of real estate so I don’t have to keep talking to new people and I can build a few relationships? And so, I started talking to developers, struck some relationships with those guys, and learned how they did the business, investing in property, and got my insurance license when I was 19 so I could sell them key person insurance. I got my securities license when I was 20 so that I could actually raise money because I learned they did these things called syndications through limited partnerships and all this other stuff.
And that really, while I was kind of making my money by playing in bands, I was getting my education in school, and then I was doing this other stuff as, I guess, a second side hustle. And it was just always fascinating to me. And when I got my securities license, I got introduced to some people at Prudential Securities in New York, and one of the investment bankers there took me under his wing. And leveraged buyouts were really big at the time. And he showed me that you could actually do the same kinds of deals that I was doing with no money out-of-pocket real estate with companies that you could actually buy companies and they would pay for themselves between a combination of debt and the assets that they had.
And I started doing that, just absolutely fell in love with that, and started then applying a lot of the real estate stuff that I had learned to those deals and realized that you can do a lot, I mean, a lot, without having to have a bunch of money. And so, I continued to do that through my accounting degree and through law school. And then I practiced law. And when I was practicing law, I just kept doing those deals. But the thing that was new that I found was that there were a lot of people that would come in and they were these accidental entrepreneurs that had a really cool business but didn’t know much about business.
But I had been to business school and I had gone and enrolled in an advanced tax program at University of San Diego. And I had my law degree and I had all this business experience and knowledge from my dad. And so, I was like, man, a lot of those people, I was like, you can actually do things a little differently and make a whole lot more money.
And I remember the very first time I talked to somebody, I was like, what if instead of paying me for legal services, I think there’s a big opportunity with your business, what if we just split 50/50 on the upside? Let me come in and help. And we generated an extra million eight and profits in that business over nine months. So, I got $900,000, he got $900,000. And I was like, well, this beats the heck out of practicing law. So, eventually, I kind of moved to doing that full-time. And now, I am living that entrepreneurial investor life as I have for a long time now.
Justin Donald: That’s awesome. So, when would you say that you became financially free, you didn’t have to work? So, you get to work today. You don’t have to work and you love what you do. But when was it that you hit that number where you had enough income or you had enough passive income to just be set?
Roland Frasier: Well, it depends on how you define it because I think, like real estate to me, unless you just have– I mean, actually, I guess if you have a portfolio of rental properties and you have property managers and you have somebody managing the assets, then you could call it passive income. But I kind of feel like most investments aren’t passive that people say are passive. So, I would say I was at that point around between 18 and 20 because I already had lots of real estate, but I wouldn’t have ever been happy just stopping at that point. It’s like I see these things where people are like, I’m going to retire. I retired at 30, and I’m like, why? What are you going to do for the rest of your life? I mean, I guess if you want to dedicate your life to philanthropy or something like that, but I like business.
So, to me, this is one of the most fun things that I do. And so, real estate to me is something that requires management. And if you’re a responsible administer or steward of your portfolio of assets of anything, you better be paying attention to them. Just look to Hollywood and all the people that manage the money for the stars and stuff, so I feel like I’ve been that way for decades and decades and decades, but I don’t ever see not being actively involved because it’s just so much fun.
Justin Donald: Yeah, I’m with you. I love business. It’s a blast. Sometimes people are like, well, hey, if you don’t have to work, why do you have your mastermind? Why do you have your podcast? And my answer is that I love it. I would like to be doing this three days a week. This is just wonderful.
Now, I like having extended weekends each week. I like being able to do the things that I want to do. But it’s important for me to have something that can pour my energy into and if I can do something that has an impact to help other people figure out some of the things that I did at a young age, things that you did, Roland, at a young age, so that to me, just the liberation that I experienced, knowing I didn’t have to work, that I get to work, that I get to choose how and when and the amount of hours, where I’m working from, when I vacation for how long I do, like that to me is fulfilling work to help other people get to that same point.
Roland Frasier: I think that it also, being in the position that you described really helps with you having gratitude for what you have because you know that you don’t have to do it, and therefore, you’re grateful if you enjoy it that you get to do it. That’s I think a big important distinction. And even if like I took a month off in January and February and hung out in London and spent the entire month there and it was awesome, but I couldn’t help while I’m there, doing some business stuff because you just can’t help yourself because you like it. To me, that’d be like, you can’t ever read a book again. I love reading books and I love learning. And business is this big continual book training sessions, seminar that we get to participate in that’s always raising our level. And so, I think that not having two is really awesome, and then that really enhances your appreciation and gratitude and saying, I really get to do this. I like that distinction.
Justin Donald: Yeah, to me, that’s the game changer because then you can just shift all your attention to the thing that really fills you up the most. And maybe you weren’t doing that before and you can pivot to it. For me, I was actually doing it, so I just got to do it a little bit more on my terms. And I remember when I took a year off and our family traveled the globe, went to– I don’t know, I think we went to 13 different countries, it was incredible. And I just was paying attention to what are the things that I do when I’m not paid to do anything?
So, I wake up, I’ve got no responsibilities. And by the way, it was hard to not work or try to not work for, I mean, that first month, it was hard to get out of the swing of working, and then you get out of it. It’s like, this is amazing. And then you get antsy, like, I need to do something. So, it’s interesting, these waves that happen.
But the thing that I noticed that I did every day when I journaled, I would journal every day and just capture what it was that I did, and it was I love to read, so I love to learn, I love to teach people what I’m learning or what I think I’ve figured out or done well with. I loved helping my friends achieve financial freedom. And then the thing that I was doing, I mean, just purely out of joy was doing investment deals. And so, that was it. That was my year off was those four things.
And so, it was interesting as I came back and said, hey, what’s the next chapter for me that I was able to incorporate all that into a really cool mastermind that did all those things? It checked all those boxes because I’m going to do them anyway.
Roland Frasier: Yeah. And I would add to that one of the things that I think you’re really good at that is very pleasurable as well is connecting people, like if you like people, if somebody asks, well, why would you do a mastermind if you’re allegedly financially set, it’s like because I like people. And so, if I have the opportunity to bring together a lot of people that I like to hang out and we all benefit from it and learn from each other and do better, why wouldn’t I do that? It’s crazy. So, I think that people, like that’s another thing is if you really enjoy human beings and contact and you’re kind of social, it sure is fun hanging out with a bunch of smart people who are also of the means to be able to do a lot of the things that you might like to do, right?
Justin Donald: Yeah, no doubt at all. A lot of people think that my superpower is investing. I actually don’t think my superpower is investing. I think it’s networking because most of the amazing deals that we get, and yeah, I’ve negotiated some cool structures and I’ve done some cool stuff, I know you’re great at it and I want to get into some of that today, but most of the deals I’ve gotten, it has been through relationships, like that’s how I got into them, and maybe we were able to tweak some stuff also because there was a relationship there as well.
And I know you’ve got a mastermind. You’re a part owner in War Room. And I’m sure that has been very fulfilling and very educational. And you’ve got some amazing people. We’ve got many mutual friends with Brad Weimert and Erik Van Horn and many others that are part of that group that you and I are both connected to.
Roland Frasier: We have nine masterminds that I’m part of.
Justin Donald: I didn’t realize it was nine.
Roland Frasier: Yeah, because they’re different. So, even just with Ryan Deiss and Richard Lindner in our company, so DigitalMarketer, we have a thing called the scalable operating system that’s got seven levels, right? So, the first two levels are marketing related. We have a mastermind with DigitalMarketer for that. That’s called the Modern Marketing Mastermind.
Then we have levels three, four, five which are really around the business operating system. And so, for business, that’s what War Room used to do. Our last war room is happening, I think, in October. And the new focus around these levels for business is called Founder’s Board. And so, that’s really our entrepreneurial business mastermind but really focused on your operating system and your ability to have the right people to compensate yourself the right way and build a good board of advisors and directors.
And then, the levels six and seven are really about acquisitions, exit, and then post-exit entrepreneurial investing. And so, like just in that small holding company that owns those three companies, we have three separate masterminds because we found that it’s really helpful to be focused on the thing that you’re in right now, the stage of business or life that you’re in. And then we’ve got a couple in the real estate world and a couple in the investing world in real estate. So, like real estate brokerage, we’ve got one, and real estate investors, we’ve got one.
And so, it’s funny. I don’t go out of my way to think about doing them. We’re about to launch one with Daymond John also, but it just seems like there’s all these different niche interests that we’ve got. And when you just start thinking, I want to be around people that are kind of focused on that right now, then you end up, you kind of can’t help yourself because if you’re a good networker like yourself, then you start talking to people and you’re like, well, why don’t we get together and meet? And then it’s like, well, let’s see if we can turn this into something that might have some legs and life to it.
Justin Donald: Oh, I love it. That’s so fun. And there’s nothing more fun than connecting two people where some sort of magic happens there or you’re even part of it and you get to do some amazing things and it’s all within the confines of people that you want to do life with anyway. So, why not do business as long as you can make it a win for everyone, right?
Roland Frasier: Yeah. And I think like for me, and my guess is I’d love to hear your take on it, but like for me, I get the most because I am members of several masterminds as well, and I don’t think it’s like I would not be happy just in one because there are these clusters of networks of people that people like you and Joe Polish or whoever assemble, and I’m probably not going to meet them unless I get to that mastermind. And at that mastermind, they’ve all traveled from all over the world to be there because some cool person has decided to create that opportunity for all those people to get together.
And so, I’m excited to invest in several of those to be able to have those connections. And for sure, I wouldn’t have met half the people I know if I wasn’t constantly making that investment. I just think that’s one of the absolute best things you can do in terms of bang for your buck. I mean, I don’t know, 30, 50, 100 grand a year to be able to connect people that can make you tens of millions, that’s kind of a no-brainer for me.
Justin Donald: Total no-brainer. And I’m with you, I’m part of a bunch. And that’s the thing when you think abundantly, sometimes, when people are thinking more of money is like a scarce resource, it’s like, oh, I’d have to spend 30k or 50k or 100k to be part of that, that’s a lot of money. But when you’re thinking through the lens of abundance, it’s like, well, no, actually, one conversation can make you that, one connection, and it should. And it has for me, I can tell it has for you.
Roland Frasier: Yeah. So, it works to me in a few ways too. It’s like, okay, let’s say that you don’t have anything going right now, then to me, if it’s me and people ask that from time to time. So, what if you didn’t have anything and you were getting started from scratch? I would absolutely beg, borrow, or steal to get myself in a mastermind because that is the ultimate shortcut because now, you’ve got people who have actually decided that they want to get together and most of them are successful. So, I’m going to have to fake it until I make it. And when I get in there, if I’m starting from scratch, but I’m going to see what can I do to add value to those people because I know I’m good at finding value that I can add.
And if you can add value, then there’s partnership opportunities. So, like just being in a place where people are open to talk to people about those opportunities because a lot of the people that are in your mastermind or in the ones that I belong to or ours might not be available if you just reached out, if you just hit them up with a DM on Instagram or LinkedIn or something like that, this is like I get spammed all the time from that stuff. And so, I’m not really open at that time to do that.
But when you’re in a room with people that have made a decision and an investment to come there, and at that point, they are open during that time, that’s kind of like a limited window of opportunity to do deals with those guys. And so, that’s a huge advantage. Now, that’s if you don’t have anything going. If you’ve got something going, holy goodness, how can you not find 100 grand to a million in a room full of super smart people? It’s kind of like you really kind of have to work to not do that.
Justin Donald: Totally. And the more value you add, the more people want to pour into you. So, when you show up with your gifts and you try and help people, it’s amazing how people line up and say, hey, have you ever thought of this? Or hey, we should team up and we should do this deal or this thing, this business. And I can’t tell you how many offers I get, and not just in my own mastermind, but in different masterminds, different groups because of truly wanting to add value. For no other purpose, then I think everyone should do that wherever they are, but people want to reciprocate that. Yeah, that’s cool.
Roland Frasier: 100%.
Justin Donald: Well, I love that you’re so abundant in the way that you think. And you think about the most successful people, they’re the ones that don’t play it small with the amount of dollars to get into wherever it is to get into. What’s the club? What’s the group? What’s the organization? A lot of people pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to be part of a country club. I’m pretty sure they’re not doing that to just golf. That’s a very expensive golf membership.
Roland Frasier: It is.
Justin Donald: It’s for the relationships. And so, you can have access to people that play at just as high of a level, if not higher of a level, who just don’t care about golf in these different masterminds. And so, yeah, I think it’s neat.
Roland Frasier: I think like it goes across the board whenever you’re looking to do the next thing that you’re going to do, whether it’s in the existing business that you’ve got or into a new thing. I have always tried to find the paid channel of access. I don’t want the free channel of access because then I’m asking, I’m not starting with the give. I like it when I can create a situation where the person that I want to connect with is in a service mentality, and they are if they’ve created a paid channel of access. So, can I hire them to speak? Can I hire them to consult? Can I hire them to do whatever it is that I need to do?
Or have they opened a program, a course, a high-level training? Not just a course that’s like a low-end thing, it’s got to be the one where I get to talk to them. So, I’m always going to say, okay. I know all that stuff and I have people that come to me and I’m sure you do too, it’s like, okay, I know you’ve got this training on this thing. I want to know how to do that, but I know I’m never going to go through it. So, can I just pay you a bunch of money to sit down and talk to you? Absolutely, you can.
And that, to me, is like there’s almost always a paid channel for access that exists. Even if you’re trying to go to lunch with Warren Buffett, it might cost you a couple of million dollars. And so, that might not be a channel that is immediately available to you, but there are paid channels for access to almost anyone. So, if you start thinking about that and you say, okay, well, who are the top 100 people that I want to connect with? And then you say, okay, I want to find out how many of those people have a paid channel of direct access? And how many of those channels are affordable to me right now? And then just start knocking them out.
You can actually connect with almost anyone you want, you’ll find probably two. Ten percent of the way through that list, some of those people are going to connect you with the other people that you need, and then they become the connection that then identifies a paid channel of access that you didn’t even know existed, which might be as simple as give $10,000 to this person’s charity, hang out with them at their thing. Or like when we met William Shatner, we met him through the paid channel of access of hiring him to speak at one of our events.
Then I got to talking with him, and he’s got this passion project that he’s done for a thousand years now called the Hollywood Charity Horse Show. And I started talking to him about it and he invited us out. And so, we came, we bought some stuff at the auction, and then we saw that it was terribly well run. And so, we’re like, man, I mean, I think we could help you with this if you’d like. So, we ended up running it for four or five years for him, and then through that, met all of the people in his network because he’s like come to the house and watch football and meet these people. It’s so cool how that if you start with what’s the PCA, what’s the pay channel of access that that leads to so many other opportunities.
Justin Donald: Yeah, I think that’s just such a great framework. You can pay for it individually. You can get access as a group, but yeah, and by the way, for the people that don’t need your money, the paid channel of access is their foundation, is their charity that takes you the most about, like a lot of the people that I’ve met or I’ve done work with, they don’t want the money themselves. The money goes to their organization, whatever it is, their organization of choice, which is cool.
So, one of the things that you had mentioned earlier, you talked about leveraged buyouts, also referred to as LBOs. I’d love to have you expand on what that is to give our audience a better understanding of that specific niche because this is a very interesting play. And you had said it before, one of the things you love to do is no cash down deals. And I’d love to dial in to some more of the details there, but often, these LBOs are a no-cash deal or a low cash deal and I’d love to have you share some of your experiences there and what that specifically is.
Roland Frasier: Sure. So, really, that’s just one of a whole bunch of strategies and there’s over 200 of those that we’ve been able to identify over the years to acquire a company without having to come out of pocket for it. And so, my first exposure to it was back in the days when KKR was doing its acquisitions. And then there’s this giant deal with America Online that got acquired. And it was all this debt. And so, that’s really just taking a look at what are the assets that exist in a business and saying, is there the ability to leverage these assets to generate enough debt to acquire the company? That’s really what that’s about.
I’m going to buy out the company and I’m going to do it using leverage, which is another word for debt. And I’m going to use leverage on the assets that already exists in the company that have capacity to help me borrow enough to generate the acquisition price. And so, that was like a very eye-opening thing, it’s like you’re literally using. And so, it’s not like a super earthshaking creative off-the-wall, uber-niche strategy. It was in the 80s mainstream. It was kind of the thing that they were using in the investment banking world to do these deals. And it’s still super popular and it kind of comes and goes in popularity and they might slap a different name on it or something like that, but using debt to acquire companies is really, really a great strategy.
And so, now, we’ve got debt is extremely cheap still compared to what it has cost historically. And so, right now, like, think about how expensive it is if you’re going to raise money to buy a company or even raise money to fund your company, like you need money, most people, the culture is, well, let me do a raise, let me do a round or a startup, saying let me go and find investors. But if you can create the same capital or the same cash that you need to do whatever it is that you’re going to do with that investment through debt as opposed to having equity people come in, it’s so much less expensive. Equity is the most expensive form of capital you’ll ever generate.
So, debt can be repaid from the profits, and then it’s gone. Shareholders are forever until you buy them out. So, I think that’s a really, really great strategy, but it’s just one. And so, like thinking more mainstream for a lot of the people that might be listening is like really super, super simple for acquisition is seller financing, also a form of debt, and also, it could be argued that is a leveraged buyout, but the asset that you’re leveraging there is the company that you’re buying as a whole. So, it’s generally the equity or the assets of the company that you’re buying, then serve as the collateral for the loan that the selling shareholder or owner is going to give to you to finance the acquisition of the business.
And what I’ll typically do, kind of like my opening round when I’m talking to a seller is let’s do 80% as seller financing and 20% as an earnout so that assuming that the company continues to do what we all think it’s going to do for the next couple of years, then I’ll pay you that last 20%, but that’s my hedge and my ability to see, do you have faith that the company is going to do that for the next couple of years? So, you’ll only get that 20% if the company does that, while the other 80%, I’d like you to finance over eight or ten years. And that’s my opener. And sometimes, it’s like, okay, and sometimes, it’s like, oh heck no, I want 100% cash, but then it’s like, okay, now we’re negotiating, right?
Justin Donald: That’s right. Yeah. And it’s great just to start somewhere. I feel like if you’re going to start somewhere, start with the most ideal scenario for you, and then move from there as you need because at the end of the day, the goal of a negotiation is to figure out what the other person wants, and often, what the other person wants is different than what you want. So, very likely you can structure a deal that’s super advantageous for you because they want a different outcome in that transaction.
Roland Frasier: Yeah, and I think that’s a great place to talk about the law of price and terms, right? So, I don’t generally negotiate that much on the price if I’m acquiring because the seller has a price that they want to get. And so, I’m like, okay, look, if I can get you the price that you want, then the law of price and terms is your price, my terms. If you want your price and your terms, that’s just not fair. You want your price plus all cash. If you want all cash, then it’s going to be my price, which is going to be a lot lower.
But I’d love to work with you and collaborate, and I use collaborate instead of negotiate with, when I’m talking to people to say, hey, let’s collaborate because I’m really here to get you that thing you want, which is your price. And as you pointed out, they want the price. So, then it’s like, okay, well, I want my terms and you want the price, those are not mutually exclusive. What’s really cool about that is we can both get what we want out of this. So, let’s see how we can collaborate on the terms part to figure out what terms will also satisfy what you expect to do with the money after you close because a lot of people don’t know. A lot of people are going to take the money and do something with it. That’s going to return a lot less than I’d be willing to return.
So, say, well, why don’t you just invest in me and your company that you already have that you know all of the skeletons in the closet for and get maybe 6% on your money instead of 2%? So, what if I can give you three times what you’re going to get by sticking the money in the bank or in some super safe investment that you’re thinking about retiring on? And by the way, if I don’t perform, you can have the whole company back and sell it again. That’s kind of a good sexy, let’s all get what we want out of it, I think, way to approach it.
Justin Donald: I love that. And by the way, when people will defer compensation, when they’ll do an earnout, they’ll sell or finance a deal, I always have a lot of confidence that, okay, this deal is probably a good deal if they’re willing to pursue this, like I actually want to buy it even more now.
Roland Frasier: It’s a great filter. Yes, absolutely.
Justin Donald: Yeah. So, something that you talk about is strategy versus tactics. And I’d love to hear your thoughts on that.
Roland Frasier: Yeah, I think both are important, but I think that there’s generally a strong overreliance, at least in the circles that I have traveled in on tactics versus strategy. And so, a tactic might be let’s use Robin’s egg blue for the background of this web page because we find that Robin’s egg blue converts at a 16% higher conversion rate than the other colors that we’ve tested. And let’s use an orange button instead of a red button because we tested that. That, to me, is a tactical thing, whereas a strategy is– and by the way, most tactics I have found are very short-lived and their life span is defined by the number of people that know about them. So, that’s kind of a secrecy-type thing, hey, we found that Robin’s egg blue test is much more, so do that, but then everybody does that, and then it becomes not effective anymore.
So, the shelf life is very limited, whereas the strategy of, let’s build a replicable, repeatable pattern of how we approach going into new markets, like Nike did. Nike said, let’s go after a category of sport. And the way that we’re going to go after each new category of sport is the way that we accidentally kind of got running, which is we’re going to do grassroots by getting it to the coaches that will get it to the athletes that will then start wearing it, and then those people will win competitions. And then when we have enough money from that, we’ll invest in the lead athletes to be sponsors, and maybe we’ll even cut them their own brand in a shoe that’s named after them. And then, you know what we’re going to do? We’re going to go into the next category and we’re going to continue to blow that. Oh, and by the way, we’ll go from shoes to clothing and so on and so forth.
And so, I love the study of Nike’s success A.R.C. versus Reebok’s because Reebok was very tactical and was kind of just like, what can we do right now that’s going to work? We had luck in aerobics. We got lucky in aerobics. Nike got lucky in running. So, then after that, what did they do? Well, Nike built this repeatable thing and just owns all sports now. And I’m sure there’s Nike pickleball stuff and other sports that are on the cusp, right? But Reebok has been sold multiple times and is now the footnote on some private equity balance sheet as far as I know.
And I got to talk to the founder of Reebok, and he was like, man, I just kind of did it. I just was kind of trying to stay alive, and both of them were. Phil Knight was also trying to stay alive. But the tactical approach of Reebok was let’s just keep finding out, like, what’s working for people, and let’s try to do that? It’s like get distributors and let’s do this. And here’s what we do based on what everybody else is doing. And eventually, it just fell apart because there wasn’t any governing strategy to guide how were they going to grow for the long term. And Nike had that. And so, that’s the multi, multi, multibillion-dollar valuation versus the footnote on a financial statement.
So, I think that applies to everything in our businesses, is that if we’re really focused on what can we do that will hold up for the long run? That’s our strategy. And then we can look at what tactics will help us enable the strategy. I think that’s great because then it becomes a filter, and you can say, I went to this mastermind and I got 32 tactics, right? And now, I have a strategy. Do those tactics fit my strategy and move it forward or not? If they don’t, then I probably don’t want to worry about them. But if they do, then cool, let’s use that. But they’re working hand in hand and you can’t, to me, long-term have great success without some overarching strategy. I hope that makes sense.
Justin Donald: Yeah, it’s incredible. And I love the way that you describe it. And for anyone that hasn’t read the book, Shoe Dog, it’s just an incredible story. It’s Nike’s story, Phil Knight’s story, and it’s so worth the read. It’s one of my favorite books.
Roland Frasier: Read that and then read, I think the other one, I can’t remember the gentleman’s name, I think it’s Shoemaker, which is hard to Google, by the way. It’s like you Google Shoe Dog, it comes right up, just shows you like good strategy there. Shoemaker, there’s a million of these shoemakers. But yeah, I love, by the way, reading contrasting success story books together. I think that’s like when you’re looking at a biography, particularly corporate biographies, like take the one that was the success and take the one that was the study in failure and see then what were the different points that caused one to take off and one to not so much.
Justin Donald: Now, that’s a cool idea. I love that. I’m going to have to try doing that. Sometimes, I’ll read them back to back, but to kind of do a side-by-side, it’s neat.
Roland Frasier: It’s pretty cool.
Justin Donald: So, in our mastermind, I’m sure you’ve heard of the book Buy Then Build by Walker Deibel. So, he’s a member of the Lifestyle Investor Mastermind, and I love his stuff. And you’ve got a book that not only is about buying versus starting, it’s just so much easier. I mean, we could go through tons of reasons here, but I want to highlight your book because your book is not just about buying a business, but it’s actually zero down, not just buying a business, how do you buy a business with no money down? And I’d love for you to share a few thoughts on that as we wrap things up.
Roland Frasier: Sure. So, what specifically would you like for me to talk about?
Justin Donald: Well, overall, I mean, is there a quick strategy that we haven’t covered that you could mention, I don’t know, some keys to success there to get people started, to get their wheels turning a little bit because most people think, I’ve got no money, I can’t do it. I’ve got to wait until I have money. And when I got started, that’s how I thought about it, too.
Roland Frasier: Yeah. So, I think that’s like first, well, as with most breakthroughs, it’s mindset based, right? So, I think that mindset is you can go the traditional way and the traditional way is going to be that I’m going to go to a bank. I’ve got a business that I want to acquire. Well, let’s do two things. First, I want to get in business. Okay, what do I do? Well, I’m going to start it. Okay, great. Why? Well, I’m going to start it, I guess, because you start businesses to get them. Why don’t you buy one?
And Walker has that, I believe, covered in his book pretty well as well, which is, well, there’s a million advantages to having something that already has brand recognition, already has customers systems, profits, sales, employees, all of those kinds of things, credit, a proven product or service, a list of customers. All of those things are already present in a business that already exists. So, if you start one from scratch, it’s going to take you a lot of momentum or a lot of movement or inertia to get to a momentum that a business that already exists already has. And it’s probably not that much different in terms of the investment you need to make to acquire a business versus start one from scratch.
So, then I say, okay, well, now I want to buy a business, so I need money. Well, traditionally you would say, yes, I do. This business I want to buy, it’s making $500,000 a year and the seller wants five times that so they want $2.5 million. I don’t have $2.5 million sitting around in the bank. I can’t buy that. Well, you could go to a bank and borrow that, and maybe the bank would finance that if the business is doing well enough, but they’re probably going to want personal guarantees from you and all kinds of other things.
You could go to the Small Business Administration, and the Small Business Administration would be willing to finance a good chunk of it. They’re going to ask you to come up with some too, and maybe you have that or maybe you don’t. But then to me, it’s like, well, what else could I do? And that is like, I came from the– and I never can remember his name, but it came from the Toyota manufacturing system, to me, reading about that and saying, there’s the five whys, and if something fails, you ask, why did it fail? And then you go and ask that question five times, with each answer you get, you’ll probably get to the root of the problem.
And so, I was like, well, I wonder if you could do that with business. And so, I call it the five buys, right? So, buy one is pay cash. Buy two is I’m going to go to the bank. Okay, now, I’m out of traditional ways to do that. So, what else can I do? Well, I could raise money. Okay, well, that’s still fairly traditional, and I don’t have a bunch of contacts and no bunch of rich people. So, what if I can’t do that either? Great. Now, I’ve got to start getting creative.
And that first level of creativity is, to me, the 80/20. Okay, seller, would you be willing to carry 80% and would you be willing to do a 20% earnout? If they say, yes, I’ve got that. If they say no, then I’d be like, well, what would you be willing to do? Well, maybe I’d be willing to do a 20% seller financing and a 10% earnout. Okay, great. Well, then I’ve already got 30% of what I need, so I’m only 70% away. Yeah, Sakichi Toyoda, thank you, is the five whys guy. Great. I would read everything by him.
So, now, I’m 30% of the way there. Well, that’s kind of cool. So, if I’m 30% of the way towards a $2.5 million business, I’ve found $750,000 of financing just by talking to the seller one time or two. So, what else can I do? And so, then I start looking at from my leveraged buyout experience, I’m going to say, okay, well, what other assets are there that someone might be willing to lend on in the business? And I’ll start kind of running down that.
So, there’s all kinds of what they call ABL lenders, asset-based lenders that will lend. So, if there’s equipment that’s there or machinery or cars or computers and desks even, and things like that, there are asset-based lenders that will lend you a portion of the value of those things. But then there’s also inventory, so maybe there’s inventory that exists. And inventory financing is popular, or maybe I’ll ask the seller to inventory finance and say, hey, tell you what, why don’t you keep the title to the inventory? We’ll just do a few carve-outs of things like inventory and you’ll continue to own that and I’ll just pay you as that inventory sells. How about that? That way I’ll get you your price because I want to get you your price. We’re in this together to get you your price. So, inventory financing, either through a third party or through the seller can be a great way to do that.
Maybe there’s accounts receivable, people that owe the business money. And I can go to factors and factor that. These are all very, very traditional ways of doing things but stacking them on top of each other, so I call it deal stacks. So, we’ve got 30% of the way there with a conversation with the seller. Maybe we do these things and we find another 40%. Now, we’re 70% of the way to our $2.5 million acquisition. We now only need to find another $750,000. Well, that’s a lot of money. Okay, well, maybe it is, but let’s see what else we can do.
So, then I’ll continue looking. Maybe a lot of businesses have good, consistent revenue that have been around for a long time. And so, maybe there’s the ability to do revenue-based financing, American Express, several merchants, lighter.com, a lot of those people will do revenue-based financing. So, they’ll fund the company based on its historical revenue. And so, maybe I can get another 10% there. Great. I’m only 20% away now.
And so, then I’ll say, well, who’s going to run this thing? Because I don’t want to run it, I’m an investor. And the seller’s out of here when it’s done. Okay, well, maybe some of the people that are there are qualified to run it. And if I want them to stay and not great resignation me away and job hop, then I probably ought to see if I could get them to get some skin in the game and also have a chance to benefit from what we do with the company so that we’re going to work together as a team to sell the thing.
And so, maybe I’ll give the COO or general manager or the bookkeeper or accountant or whoever the key people there, maybe I can get them to invest 20%. Very often, I can. Well, how do those people have money? Well, they’ve got friends. They had crypto back in the day when crypto is worth more than it is right now. But maybe tomorrow, it’ll be worth twice what it is now because that’s how that goes. They’ve got retirement accounts, they’ve got friends and family, they’ve got houses. So, there’s all kinds of things that those people probably have enough money to make a small investment in the company. And very often, I’ve got to get 20% down because that’s what the seller has always heard they need to get and I don’t want to come up with it. I’ll just go and get it from the people who are in the company already.
And now, I’ve got buy-in, plus I own 80% of the company with no money out of pocket, and my key people aren’t going anywhere because now, they’ve got some pretty significant investment in the company. And so, it’s just going through all of those kinds of things to see what are the opportunities. And like I said, I think it’s 224 of them right now that I’ve identified that I can stack one on top of the other to be able to acquire this thing.
And then, if I’m doing that in a separate entity, which is generally referred to as an SPV, a special purpose vehicle, fancy legal name for a company that just means a corporation or an LLC, basically. So, if I do all that in there, then I have no personal liability. I didn’t have to personally guarantee anything with a bank, I won’t with the seller, and I didn’t have to personally guarantee anything with the SBA. So, now, I’ve gone beyond those kind of boring vanilla, not creative, traditional ways to get things funded. I don’t have a bunch of other investors that are just financial people looking for a return. I haven’t had to hit up my friends and family to invest in my deal, and the two people that did invest were key people in the company. And now, I’ve got this thing that is a profitable existing company that would have cost me $2.5 million out of pocket, and I didn’t have to come out of pocket at all. So, that’s a few things that you could do to do something like that.
Justin Donald: Roland, that’s incredible. So, you just rattled off 20 different things and you said you have about 224 of them, which is so cool. I can’t wait for people to dig into your book, and just hearing you talk about it is so fun and I love seeing you use your creative energy on the deal structure side of things. I love doing that too. And it sounds like you have a bunch of cool stuff that I want to take and borrow, and there are some things that I’ve done that prior to doing it, I’d never heard of. And it’s just fun to kind of figure out what’s going to work and what’s not going to work.
And for anyone that’s unfamiliar, there’s a specialty lender for virtually everything. So, whatever it is that you need money for, if it is a legit opportunity, you’ll know it because someone will give you money for it, and it will be at different interest rates depending on the level of risk, depending on the level of collateral. But in almost everything, you can get some form of institutional money, but I love that you’re going even beyond that. So, most people think of like, oh, there’s a bank. Oh, the bank said, no, okay, I can’t get it, versus like all the different specialty lenders. But you’re going even beyond those specialty lenders with some unique strategies, and I love that.
Roland Frasier: Absolutely.
Justin Donald: Very cool. So, where can my audience learn more about you, Roland?
Roland Frasier: So, I am everywhere on social at /rolandfrasier, R-O-L-A-N-D F-R-A-S-I-E-R. So, whether it’s LinkedIn or TikTok or YouTube, I do content across all of those channels. I have a podcast like you do that you’ve been on called Business Lunch, and then pretty much all of the stuff in that what we’ve been talking about is under EpicNetwork.com, which is where we do consulting for equity and acquisitions and exits and all that sort of stuff. And specifically, for everybody that’s listening, I do almost every month a challenge, a five-day challenge, where we go through how can you identify five companies that you could acquire for no money out of pocket or little or no money out of pocket, and that’s done through GetEpicChallenge.com.
Justin Donald: Well, this is so much fun. I really appreciate you taking the time and sharing so many of your strategies and so many of your hacks that have taken you years to figure out or perfect. This has been awesome. And I just want to wrap things up today as I do every single week that we get together, which is this. What’s one step you can take today to move towards financial freedom and move towards a life that you truly desire that’s on your terms, a life that’s not on default or by default, but rather by design? Thanks so much for tuning in, and we’ll catch you next week.
Roland Frasier: Thanks for having me.