Redefining Success as a Husband & Father with Jon Vroman and Hal Elrod – EP 250

Jon Vroman: Welcome to the show for I don't know how many times you've been on at this point over the last 10 years, but I've highlighted you at least once.

Hal Elrod: Dude, it's my first time in person, though. You've upleveled.

Jon Vroman: Yeah, that’s right.

Justin Donald: That's true. That's true. Yeah. It's always been over Zoom or Riverside.

Jon Vroman: This is so different. The conversations feel like definitely deeper, more rich. Just different. I think people relax a little bit when we give ourselves more time too. So, anyway, quick check-in. How are you both doing? How are you feeling? What's good? Give me something to celebrate. Let's start with that.

Hal Elrod: Something to celebrate. Me and Halston have been working out at the YMCA multiple times a week, and that's just been amazing. It's been awesome.

Jon Vroman: Lifting weights or…?

Hal Elrod: Lifting weights, playing basketball, and he's the one that took the initiative and was like, "Dad, let's go work out,” which is cool. And it's wild to see your kids through stages where there are times where you're like, "Is my kid ever going to be athletic? Like, I think it'd be important for him to be athletic. He is not athletic.” and then all of a sudden testosterone kicks in or whatever, or puberty and he's wanting to lift weights, he's wanting to run.

Jon Vroman: Love it.

Hal Elrod: Yeah. It's great.

Jon Vroman: I think a lot of what I keep hearing is just let go, stop trying to control it so much.

Hal Elrod: Totally.

Jon Vroman: People will be on their timeline. They'll do things when they do them. And I think conversation yesterday, this guy, Danny, and I were chatting about, just keep modeling like the answer is just keep doing you the best way that you can. If you work out and the kids keep seeing that rather than forcing it on them.

Justin Donald: Yeah. That's good.

Jon Vroman: What about you, JD?

Justin Donald: Well, from a health standpoint, I'm feeling pretty good. Last time we met, I was not doing well. I'm fighting the mold toxicity battle, as you guys know, and I really haven't spoken publicly about it so no one really knows. So, maybe this'll be the first time it airs where people hear about it, but crazy mold situation in our home. Brand new build and just built incorrectly. And so, I got super sick, as you guys know, bedridden sick for days. And last time we met up, I had another episode. And so, my mold toxicity, my mycotoxin levels are the highest my doctors ever seen for a person. And the way that it manifests is through just being constantly tired, having a ton of brain fog, just all the time. And I am feeling more and more myself. Even this is just a week later since we had our band made up.

Hal Elrod: You are a mess, man.

Justin Donald: I was in rougher shape then. So, I'm feeling a lot of gratitude for a healthy body, and the protocol I'm going through is just crazy intense, but it's working. I mean, I can feel it in my body. It's working.

Jon Vroman: Nice. I've never told you this, but I'm actually glad you have brain fog because I feel like we're operating maybe more on the same level now. Justin with brain fog, Jon at his best, kind of like leveled the playing field for us a little bit.

Hal Elrod: Oh, goodness.

Jon Vroman: Maybe you'll forget some sh*t occasionally versus remembering every detail of every moment.

Justin Donald: It can be frustrating. I feel like I've had this great memory for years and years, and when it doesn't show up, it's like, "Man, what's happening? Is this aging? Is this from the mold? What is this?” Because something's happening. So, yeah, it's palpable.

Hal Elrod: I can count on you through having a bad memory.

Justin Donald: You can, better than anyone else.

Hal Elrod: How to just accept it, deal with it, just make fun of it, and move on.

Jon Vroman: It's just so real. Yeah. I even remember when Tony Robbins came out and talked about his mercury poisoning, how it was affecting his ability to process. And just these heavy metals and these molds, these last couple years have really been on my radar at such a high level. And, Hal, you cleared your body of some metals, which is killer.

Hal Elrod: Yeah. My heavy metals were 21 times the acceptable range.

Jon Vroman: Yeah. So nuts.

Hal Elrod: And once I started doing chelation therapy with Dr. Ub, who we all work with, yeah, within a few sessions, I started to notice a difference. And Mike Dillard is who told me about it. And he said, “Hal, I know you deal with brain fog, so do I.” And his was from mold. Mike Dillard's was. Mine’s from chemo. And he said, "Nothing I've ever done has cleared up my mind better than this detox for mold, the chelation therapy.” Yeah. And so, I did it, and it's been helpful.

Justin Donald: And for clarity's sake, it's two things. There is the chelation for hyperacting heavy metals, and then there's the mold protocol. And they're totally different. And then in some people's instances, like in mine, it's also a leaky gut protocol on top of it. So, just these anti-inflammatory diets, though, can do wonders. You hear about how healthy they are but, man, they really work.

Jon Vroman: Are you sticking to it?

Justin Donald: I mean, it's hard at first, but at this point, I'm in the way you do it in a rhythm.

Hal Elrod: Yeah. But as a foodie, can you be a foodie and also be close to that diet?

Justin Donald: I like to have some days I can zag too.

Hal Elrod: You're going to be like me. We're going to only go to The Well then we're fine.

Justin Donald: Yeah. See, I love The Well, and we're investors in The Well, but I need a little more variety than one restaurant all the time. But I still eat there more than anywhere else.

Jon Vroman: Yeah. And you're basically doing no sugar. No grains.

Justin Donald: No added sugar.

Jon Vroman: No added sugar, no grains. Is that right?

Justin Donald: Yeah. And no alcohol, no gluten, no dairy, no corn, no rice, no legumes. It's basically protein and veggies, and then I can eat berries.

Jon Vroman: I feel like I can see you’re leaner. In your face, you look leaner.

Justin Donald: Yeah. Thank you. It's amazing how quickly it takes shape too. I mean, I was able to notice significant difference in a month of doing it. Now, it's been two months, and it's very noticeable for me. Sometimes it's always hardest to notice it on yourself, right?

Jon Vroman: Yeah, big time.

Justin Donald: Because it's such small changes over that period.

Jon Vroman: Well, why we're gathered here today, you guys made time to come in, was 500 episodes of the Front Row Dads podcast.

Hal Elrod: It’s a big one.

Jon Vroman: This is our milestone. When the team came to me and they said, "How do you want to celebrate 500 episodes?” I thought, "Oh, dude. Well, Hal and Justin who have been there from the get-go and also impacted Front Row Dads arguably more significantly than any other two men since we started.” You've been advocates for the mission. You have helped by attending events and being participants, and you've also helped think through strategy. You've given ideas, you've given just time, energy, resources of all different sorts. And including bringing between the two of you probably like nearly a hundred people into the community over the years.

Hal Elrod: Am I still number one in that regard?

Jon Vroman: I'm sure that was going to come up.

Justin Donald: I actually think we may be tied because I had a couple of people come in here recently.

Hal Elrod: Oh, hey, if anybody listening who has my telephone number and wants to be at Front Row Dads, shoot me a text, and I will give you some bonus value.

Justin Donald: I may have leapfrogged you by one, in fact, buddy,

Jon Vroman: It's so cool how you guys have continued to show up. There are people that still find, like I hear more often than probably any other, “Hey, how did you find Front Row Dads?” the answer is, “I read The Miracle Morning,” or, “I followed Hal's podcast and Hal said something about it,” or, “I read Justin's book,” and mentioned Front Row Dads in your book, which has done extremely well. Both of your books have done really well. So, it's just things like that that I'm so grateful for. I mean, oftentimes I will quietly say to myself, "How did I luck out with friends like you guys?” And it feels like I won the Friend Lottery, and it's just been awesome. So, thank you so much to both of you for the way that you've shown up.

You've introduced me to podcast guests, you've helped me get on other shows, invited me to events, to dinners. When I think about a true friend, a brotherhood, not one that I just talk about people having that sounds good in a soundbite, but actually we live it, that's so cool.

Justin Donald: Well, you're easy to want to help. Like, you are always helping other people. You're very selfless in your approach. We talked about it almost to a fault, right? And so, I love that you show up so fully for your friends, for each of us in any season that we've had where we've needed that support. And then just the impact of Front Row Dads, it's like, heck yeah, I want more people to know about it. I mean, Front Row Dads will make you a better man, period. Not just a better father, which that's really important, not just a better husband, also equally important, but it'll make you a better leader, a better man, a better just person for society. And I just have gotten so much value.

So, it's not a tough sell. It's the most easy, authentic sell because I just talk about what it's done for me and how much I love the men that are part of the group and how much I love the leader running the show.

Jon Vroman: Thank you, brother. It was heartbreaking, and it was also inspiring when you told me about having to let go of some of your manuals, right? Because you were cleaning out your house because of the mold situation, and you were going through some of these old manuals. And it was nostalgic for me to even hear you say that because we've been designing these events for nearly a decade. Next year will be our 10-year anniversary of these events. We're going back to Philly, by the way, in October 2026, to the very first one. And we're going to go back to the same venue.

Justin Donald: That's cool.

Jon Vroman: The same ballroom.

Hal Elrod: Wasn't that a pub? I thought we were in a pub.

Jon Vroman: There was a pub the opening night.

Hal Elrod: Okay.

Jon Vroman: Yeah. That was a cool thing. Do you remember this? We gave everybody cartoon sketches of them and their family as a gift, a take-home gift from that event. And that reminded me of that pub in a restaurant in New York where they have caricatures all over the walls. These historical, like these are our members. And so, I wanted that same type of feel, which was really fun. So, we're going to go back. But, yeah, man, I so appreciate those kind words, and it's been so fun serving this community. Hal, when you look back to the very beginning, do you remember any… We’re testing your memory here, right, but do you remember…

Justin Donald: Do you remember anything?

Hal Elrod: What?

Justin Donald: Do you remember anyone?

Jon Vroman: Do you remember anything prior?

Hal Elrod: I don't remember. I don't like those kinds of questions but go ahead.

Jon Vroman: But like in the very early days, I'm curious what you remember about Front Row Dads with the podcast or the first event or hearing about it from me. Just any of your earliest memories.

Hal Elrod: Now, I remember, I can picture where I was driving in the car when we were talking, and you said, “Hey, I'm thinking about doing this Front Row Dads thing. You were running the Front Row Foundation at the time, sending people with life-threatening illnesses to the front row of their favorite event. And you said, I’m going off my memory here, but it was something along the lines of like you were asked by someone, "What do you do?” And you're like, “I run a charity and I'm a speaker and I wrote a book and, oh, and I have kids. Yeah. I'm a dad and I'm married,” and it was like the afterthought. And you realize like, "Wait a minute.” Your most important role is as a husband and a father, and all that other stuff should be the afterthought.

And so, you said you wanted to align your professional priorities with your personal priorities, and brilliant idea. And so now, right, you're constantly learning, growing, leading about being a better husband, being a better father, which of course makes you a better husband and a better father. And it shifted for me like, yeah, the priority, and I'm wearing the wristband that you gave at one of the retreats, right? Family man, et cetera, which who's that based on?

Jon Vroman: It was…

Justin Donald: It's the John Deere guy, right?

Jon Vroman: It was Packard. Is it David Packard? I'm trying to remember his name, yeah, from Hewlett-Packard. Yeah, it was at his funeral. He had a little sign with all his accomplishments. It was just him on a tractor, and it said, "Rancher, et cetera.” And you had given me the book where I read that story, and it just made me think that same thought about if, at the end of my life, what would it be like to put a picture of me with my family at my funeral and it just said, "Family man, et cetera”? Like, who cares about the rest of you?

Hal Elrod: Exactly. And that's it. When I went through cancer, that was my big wake-up call was, at that time, my career was at its height. Like, the Miracle Morning was in 40 countries, and it was number one in Brazil and Korea, and it was like life was amazing, right, professionally. And if you would ask me, “Hal, what's your number one priority?” Like most men, family, I would've said, "My family, of course,” but if you looked at my schedule, you'd go, "There's misalignment there, dude. You're working a lot of weekends. You're out of town a lot. There's always another book. There's always an excuse for you to get away from your family and work.”

In the morning, I would wake up. I would do my Miracle Morning. I would go straight into work, and then my wife, “Hey, you get the kids ready.” I barely see the kids in the morning, kiss them goodbye. Right now, I drive them to school. Because of Front Row Dads, I drive my kids to school every day. I pick them up every day. I have a shortened workday that revolves around family. I get them ready in the morning, right? And so, going back to the cancer journey, it was like I realized, "Oh, I say family is number one, and they are in my heart, but they're not in practice.” And so, that was like that conversation with you was the first shift. And then if a cancer like smack me over the head and be like, "Oh, I really need to live in alignment with my real priorities and what matters most, and not just say it, believe it, or feel it, but actually align my schedule, my actions, my habits, my behaviors with my family being first.”

Justin Donald: Yeah. And you had to do that too, Jon, because I want to just recognize and honor you, because you were killing it in your career. You were rated number one college speaker in the world, or at least in the US, and that was your living, right? But you said, “Hey, this is actually taking me away from my family. Like, I have to travel, I have to like do all this to grind.” It's like a lot of travel dates, speeches. You are killing it, though. You're at the top of your game, and you said, “Hey, I'm going to walk away because this, even though I'm good at it, is taking me away from this, my family. And that's the most important thing.”

So, you just hit the stop button on all your income. I think you might've picked like a few key dates that you kept doing. You basically said no to the rest of them. And then you rolled this out, not even knowing if this would be profitable, but because it was in alignment with who you wanted to be moving forward for your family and for yourself. I think that's the most admirable play because it wasn't like you stepped into this super profitable thing like this is, “I'm going to make more money doing this.” This was like, "We're pumping the brakes on income, and hopefully this thing works out.”

Jon Vroman: I'm never going to write a book on easy transitions from one career to the next. Risk-Free Transitions by Jon Vroman.

Hal Elrod: Oh, that's funny.

Jon Vroman: Just go all in. That's the only way I've done it.

Hal Elrod: Yeah, you literally lived the burn the boats philosophy.

Jon Vroman: Dude, a hundred percent.

Hal Elrod: I actually used you as a cautionary tale sometimes from like, “I had a buddy that left his corporate career that was pre-Front Row Dads, and he didn't have a lot of money saved. He just went for it.”

Jon Vroman: And like you might want to get some parachute on the way down.

Hal Elrod: Yeah, exactly.

Justin Donald: But it was so compelling. You and I, we joined right away, and we just knew that this was where we wanted to be and the people that we wanted to be around, the men that we wanted to do life with. I talk a lot about how, for me, I want to do business with the people that I want to do life with. Like, I want that to be overlapping because life's too short, and Front Row Dads, I mean, that community, those are people you want to do life with.

Jon Vroman: Tell me, guys, and either one of you can take this.

Hal Elrod: I'll go first.

Jon Vroman: Alright.

Justin Donald: You're seeing Hal’s true tendencies here. Always in a race. Always a competition.

Jon Vroman: What is something that you got from this experience? And it could have been a podcast, it could have been a live event, something from our band, like just being in and around the Front Row Dad men, the wisdom that gets shared. What did you learn that made a difference in your life?

Hal Elrod: I feel like I can look at all like three categories. As a father, and I think you already kind of shared that. It's just understanding my kids are my number one priority and part of that journey was I was confused and again I was confused thinking that my mission is to help millions of people and I placed more value on the quantity of people I was helping in terms of the depth of impact I could have for my family. And so, it was work became the priority because I'm like, "Well, I'm on this mission to help a lot of people,” and then I realized the impact I will make for the large masses of people will never come close to the importance of the impact that I am responsible for making for the three people that I live with.

And so, that was a huge shift from quantity of impact to quality of impact. And that's one thing with Front Row Dads is like, for me, I think, and for anybody in it, it helps you be a better husband as much, if not even maybe more for some people, than just a better father. And for me, the big breakthrough I had was deciding that as opposed to like comparing my wife to other wives or who I wish she would be, or I don't like this or that about her, this bothers me, or whatever, it was my mission is to make my wife's life amazing, to enrich it. And I literally took it as like a calling. Like, what if I just decide that God put me on this, part of my mission on this earth is to serve my wife, period? And it's not even about how she responds to me or if she's mad at me, or if she's emotional, or if she's irrational, or whatever.

In fact, if she's any of those things, that's my calling to step up even more and be more emotionally intelligent and empathetic, and thoughtful on my end. And so, that's been a huge shift, and I'm not perfect at it, but yeah, really taking it on as like a mission to serve my wife versus like I think we're all in most of us are in reciprocal relationships where we're like, "Oh, if you're nice to me, I'm nice to you, and if you're rude to me, then I'm rude to you.” Right? And it's deciding this one way, like, "No, no, no. Who are you committed to being, as a man, as a husband, and as a father, that doesn't matter. It's not dependent on how other people in your life treat you. It's who you are.” It's the rock. It's the lighthouse, right? Who are you committed to being? And I think that was a huge shift for me as a Front Row Dad.

Jon Vroman: If we create at some point, and we probably will like the top 10 or the top 20 concepts that have ever been created or co-created in this group, or even reinvented in this group, I think the Forever Pledge would be one of them. Because you came up with that concept, it made such a difference for you. You wrote out this pledge. You hung it up in your home. You taught it at one of our events. And then other men took that, did it, implemented it. You're very good at that. You're good at like learning, getting a concept, putting it into practice, and then teaching it. And our community has benefited not just from the Miracle Morning, because I don't know what percentage of people in our community have already read The Miracle Morning, but it's pretty high.

There are a lot of Miracle Morning practitioners in Front Row Dads, but you continue to find those habit changes, the things that we can do that change our lives forever. And I really appreciated that one, man. The Forever Pledge is probably going to be in the top 10 or top 20. Whatever it is, it's definitely something that people have taken and used.

Hal Elrod: Yeah. Thank you.

Justin Donald: Awesome. Yeah, probably top 20.

Jon Vroman: Probably.

Hal Elrod: Well, when you craft the top 20, let me know.

Jon Vroman: I use that as a challenge to incentivize you to get it to the top five. See all this motivation we use?

Justin Donald: But I like it. I like it.

Jon Vroman: Justin, what about for you, man? What's impacted you?

Justin Donald: There's a lot of levels that I could talk on for the impact. I know early on I remember making some comment to my wife, where I said, "Well, I'm traveling and I'm doing all this stuff for us, for the family.” Like, this is a great opportunity, and I can make more for the family. And I remember at one point she said, "Well, don't fool yourself. You're not doing this for the family. We have enough. You're doing this for you.” And then I started thinking about it, and I was like, "Yeah, I am. This is for me.” So, this thing takes me away from the family. One other wonderful thing she said, in the moment, it wasn't wonderful, but it was, "When you say yes to something, you're by default saying no to something else. So, anytime you're saying yes to something that's not family, you're saying no to the family.” And I never really looked at it that way.

And so, it was a great epiphany where I said, "Wow, yeah, I guess I am just taking the path of least resistance.” Like, being a businessman or being an entrepreneur or being an investor, I have enough reps. I have more reps there. It's easier. It feeds my ego more. It's fulfilling in many ways because of that, but that doesn't mean it's the top priority, right? It's actually harder to be a good father and put that time in because I don't have as many reps. I'm not as skilled or as polished. I don't have the track record. And every year or every age, it changes, like your role changes, and there's a constant upleveling that needs to happen as both a father and a husband.

And so, that was a big eye-opener for me. The whole schedule thing was another one where I looked at my schedule and I was like, "No, I'm a family man first and a businessman second,” but my calendar said the opposite where I was like, "Well, your calendar is the greatest evidence of what your priorities really are.” And I was like, "Wait a minute. Yeah. I am kind of plugging family in around all this business stuff. I need to plug family in.” Let's figure out what are the boundaries where I'm just there and there's no work thing, there's no travel thing that can trump it. Like family dinners, it's a priority. Mornings, as my daughter's getting ready for school, that's a priority. Weekends, that's a priority.

And then it's like, "What about summer travel? What about other travel? What are my daughter's days off?” Let's book all those things. So, let's book the family stuff for the year first. And then also, what are their dreams? What are their goals? What do they want to accomplish? Let's schedule those as well. And then we can fill work in around it and the other things around it. And that for me has been a huge game changer.

Jon Vroman: What has been one of your favorite podcast guests that we've had at an event speech that you heard? Maybe we can just give some props to somebody. Like, think about the people that you've had access to in and around Front Row Dads. It might be Stefanos leading breath work at FRDL. I know that was a big one for you, Hal, right? And maybe it's like all the way back to the very beginning, where Jim Sheils came in and taught The Family Board Meeting. And then he came to other events of ours. Just thinking through over the years, and I know it's a lot to consider, but can you think of people, right, that have made a particular impact on your life? And it could have even been people that you brought into the group, and then something that you got from them.

Justin Donald: Yeah. I'll go first.

Hal Elrod: You can go first.

Justin Donald: Thank you. Yeah, I appreciate that. So, this is a tough one because I could probably list a hundred, probably more than a hundred people that have had impact. And really, I could list you guys, like you guys have had profound impacts.

Hal Elrod: Who more?

Justin Donald: Definitely you, Hal. But I could give specific stories for everyone in our band at different times, different seasons. But I just had a call with a great friend and fellow Front Row Dad, Brad Johnson, this morning. And I'll give a shout out to him because I love Brad and think the world of him and love everything he's up to. But he has done a great job being a family man and really shifting some things, and it's cool watching it, even as he's building a new business. But one of the cool things in our connection, I remember the first event he ever went to, we just kind of connected. I mean, I think we just randomly had a conversation, and I was like, "Man, I really like this guy. We've got a bunch of stuff in common. We should keep talking.”

And I remember he said, “Hey, do you want to get accountability calls in the schedule?” And I was like, "Well, that's a great idea.” And then like deep down, I was like, "That's also a really big…” Well, then he goes, "We could do weekly calls.” And I was like, "Whoa, that's a big commitment.” I don't know that I have too many weekly calls scheduled with anyone, but I was like, "Well, if it was anyone, like he'd be on that list. I don't know him that well, but everything I know about him I love about him.” So, for years, we did weekly accountability calls.

Hal Elrod: Did you really? I didn’t know that.

Justin Donald: We even read books together, and we would talk about our takeaways, and we'd read a chapter, and then the next week we would share, and how did we implement that with our families.

Jon Vroman: Oh, that's amazing.

Justin Donald: And we've done a bunch of family events together. And it has just been one of the most amazing and rewarding relationships that I've built in Front Row Dads from someone who I never knew before Front Row Dads. I would've never met him most likely had it not been for Front Row Dads, and for us to still be doing our accountability calls. Like, I just had a call with him and we just caught up on family, and we'll get into some business too. It doesn't just have to be family, but we always cover family. And that to me is, it's important. There are very few people in life where I feel like I have that type of accountability and someone that will call me out on stuff, too.

Jon Vroman: Yes. Speaking of Brad, by the way, good opportunity to love on John Ruhlin for bringing Brad to the very first event.

Justin Donald: That's right.

Jon Vroman: He brought him in. And so, John gave Brad as a gift to this community, and I'm so grateful for that gift.

Justin Donald: Wonderful gift.

Jon Vroman: Such a gift. Yeah. Hal, what about you, buddy?

Hal Elrod: Yeah. I wouldn't pick one person, although Ryan Levesque stood out to me, the message that he gave at FRD Live a couple of years ago. That first came to mind, but I think ultimately it's our band, right? It's the four of us, well, I guess five of us. So, there's me, you, Justin, Tim, and Dane, and meeting once a month and for years now. And that's been one of the most valuable aspects is having the larger brotherhood, which you go to a Front Row Dads event, and it's unlike any other event where there are men there where the level of vulnerability and safety you can like go so deep, so fast with anybody. And it's because, Jon, that's a testament to you like the culture you've created or we've all co-created, it lends itself to that.

Justin Donald: Well, and you're incredibly vulnerable. Like, you don't hold back. You don't do anything to make yourself look better. And I think that that just resonates. People are like, "Man, Jon, he's an open book. He’s so transparent.”

Hal Elrod: I know, to a fault sometimes.

Justin Donald: Yeah. Go easy on this one, Jon.

Hal Elrod: You don't have to tell us everything.

Jon Vroman: No, but I’m going to live stream my home in the future.

Hal Elrod: Yeah. But no, but the brotherhood, so there's the larger brotherhood, right, which is the entire Front Row Dads community. But then our band, which is, for those who don't know, it’s a small, four-people, five-people brotherhood. That's where we get really intimate and close and know each other really, really well. But I can look, for example, Justin, last year we were sharing our goals, shared his faith, and that he wanted to bring people closer to Jesus. And I'm not a super religious person. I'm more spiritual, not religious, kind of identifying. And I drove home, and I was like, "How could I support Justin in his goal of bringing people closer to Jesus?” I'm like, “I guess I got to study Jesus. How else could I? I got to study.” So, I looked online, like what books can I read? The Bible, obviously.

But there were, I wanted another one that was… Anyway, so long story short, it was crazy that I started reading books and I'm like, "Whoa, Jesus is like no matter what your beliefs are or religion, the morals and the values that he lived by and how he lived his life.” I was like, “I think that's who I'd want to model how I live my life after.” And so, yeah, I mean, this was like a totally unexpected, profound shift in my spirituality. And that was a year or so ago. And since then, it's been like, literally, I asked myself that question, what would Jesus do? I looked at all the areas of my life, I'm like, "What are all my vices? What are all the things that aren't maybe a big deal?” But, for me, the words ‘impeccable morality’ is what was born out of that.

And I thought, "How can I be impeccable in my morality in every way?” And I'll give you one example I'll be open with is pornography. Like, I used to look at pornography a couple of times a week, few minutes, just like for a little entertainment. And I was like, “Jesus probably wouldn't do that.” And so, today's probably I think I track it on a habit app, but it's like day 292 that I have not looked at pornography when it used to be a few times a week.

Justin Donald: Great. That's awesome.

Hal Elrod: And so, that's one example. And there were other alcohol and different substances and things. I was like, "Oh, how can I be impeccable in how I treat my body and my mind and my marriage and all the things?” And that wouldn't have happened, Justin, without you, buddy.

Justin Donald: Thank you.

Hal Elrod: Thank you. Yeah.

Justin Donald: I appreciate you sharing that.

Hal Elrod: You can add that to the top 20 list.

Jon Vroman: Do you feel more comfortable giving him a fist bump now? I really appreciate that, Hal. I mean, this is the place, this is the community where we get a chance to confront and to reveal and to share in such a way and in such a courageous way where we can then give other men permission to do the same.

Hal Elrod: Totally. Yeah.

Jon Vroman: You know, whatever it might be. And it may not be the same vice. It might not be the same challenge that somebody else is facing. There are some very consistent challenges that men face. Alcohol is one of them. Porn is one of them. And probably like elements of some version of depression or anxiety, negative self-talk. These are things that we can also get addicted to. We can get addicted to achievement, progress, like there are so many things that people get a chance to be vulnerable about in this community. And it's been awesome to not have to just do it on my own, but even like in conversations like this, where I know other guys are listening, alcohol was that for me.

And I remember August 4th of last year, very significant day, I decided to let go of alcohol. And I also, looking back on it, my relationship to alcohol, I never said these words, was with my current definition, I would say I was an alcoholic. I would say I was an alcoholic under my current definition. Other people might look at me and go, “Jon, I know what an alcoholic looks like and you weren't it,” but my definition and how it was controlling my life, how it occupied my thoughts, how much attention and energy I gave it, how it influenced my behavior, that's how I would define myself as an alcoholic. It was running my life. I wasn't running it.

And I think that by hearing so many men over the years on this podcast, in interviews, in our events, in small group conversations, within our band, people looking in the mirror, truly addressing their own shadows, truly addressing their own wounds and their traumas and their insecurities, that's the part that gave me so much strength to like wake up and take my ego out of the driver's seat and just say, “Hey, man, thank you so much for trying to protect me over the years. Thank you so much for trying to make me okay, but I'm going to evolve into a newer, more aware, more grounded, more stable version of Jon, like a guy that can really stand the test of time.” A lot of the things that I was doing were burnout moves. They were burnout moves. And now it feels like when I wake up each day, I am like, “Ooh, this is sustainable. I could do this for a long time.”

Hal Elrod: You're not numbing out anymore, right?

Jon Vroman: Not numbing. I am in certain ways, I'm sure. I just had to delete Instagram and Facebook from my phone last week, again, for the hundredth time. Because it's like I'll put it back on because I have to do some work or whatever and then all of a sudden I'm standing in the toilet taking a piss, like scrolling. I'm like, “I'm addicted to this now.” But we get a chance to be honest about those things. I've even said to you guys probably privately, but also in a group, that I still, even at the level of our relationship and how much we've been through and how long we've known each other, I still sometimes hesitate to tell you guys things because I'm like there's a part of me that's worried that even at this level of our friendship, there's a moment when you guys will say, "Sh*t, Jon, still? I'm tired of talking about this. How are you still battling with that?” And I'll tire my friends out, right?

And I think that's also something that along the way, at every stage of our growth, and I'm 49 years old now with a 15-year-old and a 10-year-old, and we've been a band for six years, five or six years or something like that.

Hal Elrod: Yeah. It's been over five.

Jon Vroman: That's now my new fear. That fear didn't exist in the beginning because I wasn't worried about tiring you out, because the fear was, "Should I reveal that?” So, then I overcome that fear and I reveal it. But now I have a new fear, six years later, which is, "Did I do too much revealing? Should I pull back on the revealing?” because I don't want to burn you out. It's interesting,

Justin Donald: But I love that you can talk about that. And I love that we can be that open and go that deep. I mean, I really do think in our group there's nothing that, like for me, I don't feel like there's anything I can't share with you. I would imagine you feel the same way. I don't want to project that you do, but I feel like I could share anything. Now, I tend to be half glass full, Enneagram 7 like you guys, but like very much so the silver linings guy. So, I can always find the good and the bad, but there's never been a thing that I have felt like I can't come to you with. Like, any issue, any struggle, anything in my life, I'm like, “I always know this group I can go to. It's a safe group and they're going to support me in it.”

Jon Vroman: Yeah. “The one thing you said don't tell anybody, Jon, that I like the most is this.” Let me share with you that one thing.

Hal Elrod: No, but it reminds me of the Jim Rohn quote, “You're the average of the five people you spend most time with,” and where Front Row Dads, it's literally a group of men with really high standards who are also highly successful in business. In fact, they were probably highly successful in business where maybe not as a dad or not as a husband, which might be why they joined, but now I can't imagine a better group. If you are a man and you have a family, like I can't imagine a better group of men who are striving to be better husbands, better fathers, and successful in business, all simultaneously, and are vulnerable and loving and supporting each other like, yeah, that's it, man.

Jon Vroman: Yeah. Hal, do you have somebody that comes to mind? A person over the years? You said Ryan Levesque. Was there anybody else that you wanted to mention that has made an impact on you? Something they taught you?

Hal Elrod: I don’t want to say it's you guys. One thing that I was thinking about when I drove here, I just remember I invited Tucker Max to come to one of the Front Row Dads event in Florida.

Jon Vroman: This is Florida. And the Keys. It's a great one.

Hal Elrod: And for anyone that doesn't know Tucker Max, a couple of things. One, he has very high standards. He's very intelligent and very high standards to the point where most things you tell him or introduce him to, he tells you they're stupid.

Justin Donald: He's highly opinionated.

Hal Elrod: He's highly opinionated.

Justin Donald: Way up his standards.

Hal Elrod: Yes. “This is a waste of my time. This is stupid. I've seen better.” You name it, right?

Justin Donald: Yeah. He doesn't sugarcoat.

Hal Elrod: I was even nervous, like invite him and I'm like, "Oh, you want to come to the dad's thing?” Anyway, I just remember at the end of the dad's retreat, he pulled me aside. I mean, he might have pulled you aside, and I was standing there, I don't remember, but he said, “I've been to Tony Robbins. I've been in $100,000 masterminds.” He named all, the Genius Network, all these masterminds. He said, "This is the best event I've ever been to.” And for Tucker Max to say that, like there's almost nobody you would rather have that opinion, who again, it's not like he's his first event where he is like, "Whoa, this was awesome.” It's like, again, “I've been to Tony Robbins, I've been to Genius, I've been to all of these.” And this is the best event.

And, Jon, and I will say kudos to you like you run. I was bragging about you to our buddy, Jeremy Reisig, the other day. I said, "You got to come to Front Row Dads event. I know you're not a dad yet, but you got to come as an AV guy or like whatever.” I said, "You just got to see as someone who…” Jeremy does events. I said, "There's no one in my opinion that does events as effectively as Jon Vroman.”

Justin Donald: I agree. Yeah. I think there are two categories that you are world-class at and you are top of the game. No one is as good as you, one, at facilitating events because you don't run events. You facilitate them. And you bring people in, and it's a collaborative conversation. So, it's not the Jon Vroman show. It's the Front Row Dad show. And like you remove your ego, which is really hard to do when you have a group. So, I think you're world-class of that. I don't think anyone runs better events than you. The best of the best out there would be in the same tier at best, but I don't think anyone facilitates the way that you do.

And then secondly, I think you're the best question asker of anyone that I know. You ask the most intelligent questions. You ask questions that are off the beaten path. You ask questions that are so thought-provoking that it just really inspires a different train of thought, where like I can't just answer quickly like I need to stop, I need to process, I need to think, I want to give a better answer. And I remember early on in my career, there was a big transition that I was going through. I wanted to figure out, "Should I go on my own and start my own thing?” or I was at the top of my game back in the Cutco days and had built a lot of that training and whatnot, and I remember feeling like I wasn't fulfilled like I've hit the top level here and I really want to figure out what's next.

I want to be a newbie in something else. Like, I want to be a total novice and just start fresh. And I remember I hired you, and you were like, "You don't have to hire me.” And you're like, “I'll help you out. We can do,” and I'm like, "No, I'm going to hire you because you ask better questions and I want you to be pot committed and I want me to be pot committed. So, I want to. I want there to be an exchange of money. I want you to benefit from it. And I want me to have something saying like I need to show up.” And you asked me some of the most just thought-provoking and incredible questions that helped me transition what was a tough transition, my first big transition, and I still use those questions today.

I still go back to those questions. I added them to my own list of questions. So, anytime I have like a big life decision or I want to make a big pivot, I revisit that. And I've shared that list with countless people. It's my journaling list, and that has just left ripples upon ripples for me and I know for many others that I've shared it with.

Jon Vroman: That's awesome, man. Thank you so much.

Justin Donald: Yeah.

Jon Vroman: Well, you just reminded me of something that you've shared with the group quite a bit, which is your meeting with Jennifer that you do, and the questions that you run through. And I know that you've put that out to the group. And I want to acknowledge you, Justin, for how you continually show up in various ways in support of people, answering questions, helping out, because you've achieved a level of success. Well, let's call it financial success, right? Because you're successful in many areas of life. But in this, I'm making the point by talking about your financial success and your network success, the type of people that you can be around, arguably people with influence, and income and so on, or capital.

But you will still show up. You're not measuring always where you devote your time solely based on what that person can do for you. That's obvious that that's not your only metric for engaging with another human is, "Can this person be good for my business or do something for me?” There is a giving element of you just constantly showing up, because I do think it is interesting when somebody hits a certain level of life with their peers or their income or whatever it might be, where they can become very standoffish. I'm not attacking that. I'm not attacking somebody who puts up a fence or needs to retreat or has a more introverted tendencies. That's not my point. My point is that you can sometimes hide there. If you go there because it's healthy for you, then wonderful, right? That's a good decision for you.

But what it feels like to me is you continue to want to serve. I remember hearing somebody say a long time ago, they're like, "When you've achieved a certain level of success, send the elevator back down.” You know, just send the elevator back down. And it's cool that you've continued to do that. So, you have things that you've learned and implemented, and they've changed your life, and you now just show up and answer questions in the Telegram thread, or you'll show up for an interview like this. You'll help out at events by offering up your resources and ideas, and it's been awesome.

Justin Donald: Thank you. I love people more than anything. That is the top of my priority.

Jon Vroman: Yeah. You have a big appetite for that.

Justin Donald: I do. I do.

Jon Vroman: You've got the biggest appetite for relationships, probably, than anybody I know.

Justin Donald: I love it. It fills me up.

Jon Vroman: It is so cool.

Justin Donald: Although today more than ever, I do find that I actually do need to retreat and have some solitude to be ready, to be fresh more so than I ever realized or recognized in the past. But yeah, I mean, it's my favorite place to be.

Jon Vroman: Yeah, it's super cool.

Justin Donald: I love to teach. I love to see growth in people. I love it in myself, and I love the opportunity to be an instrument of growth or change wherever it fits.

Jon Vroman: Yeah. Do you guys think it's possible for us as a community to figure out a way to scale what we're doing? I know I'm putting you on the spot here, but I think what I'm getting at is sometimes I look at what we have, like our friendship, our connection, how we've shown up for each other, how we've supported each other with our kids, with our spouses, with our businesses, and always. But do you think it's possible for us to teach this? Like, do you think that we can help replicate the magic at scale? It's a risky question because your answer might be no.

Hal Elrod: Well, I mean, I think you're doing it right now.

Jon Vroman: And by the way. I think that's okay. Like, I just want your honest answer of, what do you guys think about the future? Like, when you look at Front Row Dads in the future, what do you see? What do you want for it? What are your fears? What are your goals? Like, I'm asking you this fresh, like on the podcast, so take it wherever you want. We didn't script this.

Hal Elrod: Yeah. No, for me, I mean, my first answer is yes. It’s that, A, it's already happening, right? And it's happening, though, at a relatively small level, meaning hundreds of guys are part of the Front Row Dads group. I'd love to see a thousand people at a live event. And then it's all modeling to me like in Front Row Dads, when you go to an event and then you, Jon, as when you're leading the event, you're modeling vulnerability, you're modeling love and connection, you're modeling the strength, you're modeling all these things. And then everybody else is like, the guys that are already there, they're like, "Yep, this is what we do. This is how we are. It's how we show up.” The new guys are like, "Oh, wow, this is what this is like.” And then as soon as they talk to somebody else, they're immediately feeling that safe space, and they go deep.

And so, my whole point is just modeling it at scale. It's just simply, how do we get the word out, right? Like, you're reaching hundreds of men, hundreds of family men. How do you reach thousands and then ten thousands? Yeah. I think the answer is absolutely yes.

Justin Donald: Yeah, I agree. And I do think that on a small scale, what we've done in our band can be replicated at a larger scale. I think that there are systems and protocols that can be built, that others can use. Now, it doesn't mean that they're going to have the same level of vulnerability because that's going to be based on how open the group decides to be, and is everyone in the group being that open? So, from a macro standpoint, yeah, I mean certainly you could get to tens of thousands, millions, that there's impact. And certainly, with all the moves you're making on the podcast too, I mean, you guys are growing your following and downloads, and the word is getting out there.

To a certain degree, there are some events that I don't think should grow in size because you lose that cohesive group. But I think there are other events that, when that's not the purpose and it is more of an outreach, then I do think those could grow. But I think for sure with the magnitude of scale online and social media, larger events, there's no doubt. But I actually think like on a smaller level, like more systematized that that can happen. What we're doing in our band, giving that playbook to other people, what we're doing, when we're going to do our retreat, just our band, we're going to go and spend three or four days together. Those things, I think, are definitely scalable and definitely replicable.

Jon Vroman: Yeah. Definitely, the local chapter concept is going to be our next big move.

Justin Donald: There could be more. There could be tons. Yes.

Jon Vroman: Yeah, that’s cool. When you think about other people that have been impacted by Front Row Dads, without outing them and something confidential, have you seen progress and impact in other men that have deeply moved you? Like, are there names of guys that wouldn’t have a problem with you mentioning how this community has impacted their life over the years?

Justin Donald: Well, for sure. Kasim Aslam, I mean, he’s the first person to show up to say there’s been no group that’s ever had the impact that Front Row Dads has had on him. And he has a large reach and he’s just a brilliant guy and people want to be around him. And so, when you have some of these key people, or Ryan Levesque, you have these key people that have these big followings and they’re advocates because their life is being changed. I mean, most certainly, I mean, I could give you story after story after story of men that that’s happened with. I see it more closely with us, with our band because we talk about it every month. But just, there are so many people that are so sold out for Front Row Dads. It’s their thing. They will clear their schedule for everything else. So, it’s like family, Front Row Dads, everything else. And it’s a testament to what you’ve built.

Jon Vroman: Kasim is such a good dude.

Hal Elrod: You just saw him the other night.

Jon Vroman: Yeah, it was such a surprise. We were out, and Kasim shows up at the restaurant and I’m like, “What? That’s so good.” Yeah, I love that guy.

Hal Elrod: Yeah. I mean, nobody specific who I would mention by name comes up. But what came to me is immediately the image of men sharing at the live events and in tears. In fact, you did mention the breathwork exercise. We did breathwork at one of the events, and I love that, right? We go to an event and it was the first night and within minutes, we’re laying on yoga mats. The guy laying on the yoga mat is being led through this, like, I think it was like a 45-minute breathwork exercise, and…

Jon Vroman: It was two hours in total.

Hal Elrod: Oh, was it two hours?

Jon Vroman: Yeah, two hours just flies by.

Hal Elrod: So, I’m starting. And was it Stefanos?

Jon Vroman: Yeah.

Hal Elrod: So, he’s leading us through it and I’m going, okay, and I’m doing all the things. And after a few minutes, in my mind, I’m like, this doesn’t work for me. Like, it doesn’t work for me. But I’m like, alright, I’ll just stick with it. I’ll keep doing it for a little bit. And within a matter of minutes, right, and this is somatic work that I don’t fully understand. But within a matter of minutes, probably five or seven minutes in, I just start bawling and I start talking to myself out loud, like talking to the inner me, like the child. It was some wild experience and I had this profound breakthrough and then I stood up and I’m like trying not to cry and I’m crying and I’m trying to share with the whole group.

But my point is the names are not the amount of men who have profound breakthroughs like that where they’re on the mic, they’re crying in front of a room full of other men, and probably guys that they probably would’ve never thought going to the event. They’re like, I’m not going to cry in front of a bunch of dudes. But they’re doing it and it’s healing for them. And other guys are putting their hand on their shoulder and giving them hugs and, you know what I mean? And it’s just…

Justin Donald: To non-huggers, non-huggers being total huggers at these events.

Hal Elrod: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean it is transformative. And you think about how many men and the ego or the manliness that we’ve been taught because of our society or maybe our dad, right? And potentially, how much like trauma there is around all these things. And for a dad who’s like, don’t cry son. You’re not allowed to cry. Men don’t cry, right? It’s just these events are permanently transformative for so many men.

Justin Donald: Yeah. And let’s even talk about Front Row Moms here for a moment, because there’s the ripple from Front Row Dads into Front Row Moms and you’ve got a couple of great leaders, couple of women that are just powerhouses running that, good friends, and to see what has been built there to hear the feedback from those women that went to their first event. So, there’s no doubt that the impact can scale and that the ripples are far and wide.

Jon Vroman: That’s so cool. I’m so glad you brought that in. Hal, when you were sharing just now, I was thinking about you taking over the podcast one summer when I was traveling. This is a testament to Front Row Dads. This is a testament to our band mate, Tim, who would travel in Europe with his family, and that inspired me. And eventually, we ended up taking six weeks and doing a big European adventure, which was awesome, so inspired through this community. You took over a podcast because I was going to be on the road and we said, “Hey, does anybody want to come in and do an interview?” And you interviewed Mikki Willis. That was an amazing show. And it’s timely because we just…

Hal Elrod: You just had him on. I’m halfway through it right now.

Jon Vroman: Yeah. We just released his episode, or at least part of his episode. We talked for almost three hours. So, he only released a part of it. And he’s outstanding. He just had a film that came out last night. There was a premiere in Austin, Follow the Silenced, which shout out to him. Can we talk about that later?

Hal Elrod: All right. Fair enough.

Jon Vroman: Can we talk about that later? I don’t want to steal from Mikki. I don’t want to steal from Mikki.

Hal Elrod: All right.

Jon Vroman: But his show just came out. You interviewed him, and I was on a cruise on a river through Europe. I was probably in France or Germany or somewhere around there listening to you interview Mikki. That was a moment for me, man, because it was a lot of things happening at once. One, as I’m on this cruise with my family, this yacht basically cruising through the river, you’re interviewing Mikki. Mikki’s dropping wisdom bombs that are just amazing.

Justin Donald: As always.

Jon Vroman: And it was like, oh, this is what happens when guys are in conversation supporting each other, being models for each other. It was a lot happening in that moment. It was a very, very meaningful moment for me. So, thank you for hosting that show, by the way.

Hal Elrod: Yeah, it was an honor. You asked me, “Is there any dad you’d want to interview?” And I was like, “Mikki Willis, 100%.” Yeah, one of the most intentional fathers on the planet, and just such a smart, emotionally intelligent human being, and yeah, well, our families hang out occasionally and (a) I’ve met his kids, right? You meet his boys and you’re like, these are the two most incredible young men you could ever hope to meet. And the way they shake your hand, actually, they give you a hug. They don’t just shake your hand, they give you a hug. They’re respectful. They’re engaged. They immediately start asking you questions like you’re talking to Jon Vroman, right? Anyway, yeah, so…

Jon Vroman: Dude, was he the show that you recorded and forgot to record and you had to do it again? Was that the one or was there a different one?

Hal Elrod: No, I don’t think so.

Jon Vroman: You had one show that you recorded but forgot to record it, and I thought it was him.

Hal Elrod: I’ve done that a few times. That might have been, I don’t remember.

Jon Vroman: It might have been Mickey. Yeah, well, testament to a short-term memory. You don’t have to worry about those things.

Hal Elrod: That’s right.

Jon Vroman: No shame. No shame.

Justin Donald: And it shows that Front Row Dads scales beyond just you, Jon, which is really cool, I mean that you can have people that want to jump in and do that and that it’s not dependent just on you. I mean, that shows the strength of the community.

Jon Vroman: Dude, and how about this, like your ripple too of– so Brad Johnson, you developed this incredible relationship with him. Brad does a takeover, interviews Michael Hyatt, which was wild. So, that was one of the interviews that was pretty cool.

Hal Elrod: Another brilliant wise father, yeah.

Jon Vroman: Yeah. So, getting Michael Hyatt in, yeah, I’m thinking of other people now that we’re talking podcast interviews, and do you have any favorite interview that you recall or something that you learned from somebody on the show?

Justin Donald: I loved the Aro team’s interview because the whole concept of leaving your phone in your office or somewhere else for them, it’s in that Aro machine, right, that charges it, but hides it. So, it’s out of sight, out of mind. I think that is one of the most powerful concepts for a family, for a dad, specifically, for us to lead that culture in the family, that your family, your spouse, your kids are more important than your darn phone.

Hal Elrod: Yeah. I’m curious, is there a certain timeframe that we’re suggesting? Is it like, hey, after dinner, the phones go away and they don’t come out till the morning or what? I’m just…

Justin Donald: Yeah, I think it’s before dinner. It’s kind of like you have your time there. It’s like, hey, this is family time now? Phone’s go into case. If you need to bring them out after your kids go down, do it. But if you cannot do that, that’s even better, because for me, like Jennifer and I get our quality time after we put our daughter down, right? So, if I’m back on my phone again, well, that’s interfering with the quality time that I could be having with her. And I’m not perfect at it, but I am miles ahead of where I used to be.

Jon Vroman: What’s wild about that moment for me was that at the first ever Front Row Dads retreat, October, 2016, the idea of putting your phone in a gun safe came up. I don’t remember who came up with the idea, but it was like a thing, that it was a ceremony that dad put his gun in a gun safe and it got locked away. That was awesome. And people really were impacted by that concept.

And then years later, we talked to these guys, amazing gentlemen who made and created, invented the Aro box, beautifully designed box. You put your phone in it, it has an app, it tracks how long your phone’s in the box, it’s got a charging station in there. It’s pretty cool. So, yeah, it was a really, really cool concept that got brought in. One of the shows that comes to mind for me is Zach Bush.

Justin Donald: Yeah, that was a great one.

Jon Vroman: That was a great one.

Justin Donald: He’s awesome.

Jon Vroman: That is such a good episode. I remember on that one, Tatyana was such a Zach fan and it was so great when I told her that, I was like, “Hey, do you want to come up and say hi to Zach at the end of the interview?” She rolls into the room. It was a virtual interview at the time, and she’s just gushing. She’s like, “Oh, my God, it’s so great to meet you.” And that felt really good, man.

Justin Donald: That’s awesome.

Jon Vroman: I think this podcast, and you guys have your own podcasts and you’ve probably met and chatted with some fascinating people as a result of your shows. This is such a great medium to be able to sit down.

Justin Donald: Totally.

Jon Vroman: And really dive deep with people. How you introduced me to Ryan Deiss, and Ryan and I had an amazing conversation just recently and that was made possible because of you and I just– what I really wish I had a list of in front of me right now was all the people you both have introduced me to. It’s a crazy list of people. So generous, so encouraging. Sometimes you’d introduce me to somebody and I’m like, I don’t know if the person they’re introducing me to is going to be disappointed with this introduction. You are swinging for the fences in my favor.

Hal Elrod: I mean, it’s a risk that I take every time.

Jon Vroman: All the time. Hal, you’ve copied me on some of the messages that you’ve sent to people pitching Front Row Dads.

Hal Elrod: Yeah, yeah.

Jon Vroman: It’s just so cool, man, and I just want to thank you guys for that. I’m saying that in a hundred different ways.

Hal Elrod: Yeah, right. It’s just rounding around. Thank you, thank us, thank you, right?

Like, it’s the whole thank the whole community. It’s just so much positivity in terms of the whole Front Row Dads experience from start to finish.

Justin Donald: When everyone wants to give, and I think it’s important that you build that culture in the beginning, but you find the people that fit that culture also, that you’re clear on what the culture is, right? Like, that’s what we do inside of Lifestyle Investor Mastermind is, it has to be a right fit. I don’t care how successful you are, I don’t care about any of that other stuff. If you’re not hungry to learn and grow yourself, if you’re not willing to share your gifts and talents and expertise, if you’re not just a kind, wonderful person, then there’s 0% chance of getting in. And I think for Front Row Dads, you’ve modeled that well. I mean, those are the men that show up in that group. And so, you always have people that want to give and it’s awesome. And that’s what you need. You need people that are selfless or have the ability and moments to be selfless and just give.

Jon Vroman: Yeah. Dude, what you did with Lifestyle, by the way, like watching you launch your community, I remember being in San Diego with you, by the way, and I think you had just hired Mike Koenigs. And it was like very early on and I remember you sending me the logo, be like, “Which one of these do you like?” It was very early on. I remember the writing of the book and then I remember being just blown away by how fast your community was growing. We were in Chicago together. I don’t know if you remember, and we were riding in an Uber, and this was after we had this like very small Front Row Dads legacy type event. We went to the baseball game and all that. And you were telling me about the people that were applying for your group and that you couldn’t keep up with the number of applications that were coming in. And you’re just so impressive, but I do feel like pretty much anything you touch turns to gold. It’s a little annoying to be…

Hal Elrod: Yeah, it is super annoying.

Jon Vroman: It’s f*cking annoying.

Hal Elrod: I always have to talk about, Justin did what I should have done with a book.

Jon Vroman: It’s kind of great.

Hal Elrod: And now, he’s living the life I should be living.

Jon Vroman: Why do you have to be so good at everything?

Justin Donald: Thank God, he has mold toxicity to knock him down a few knocks.

Jon Vroman: He remembers everything from every book he read. Jesus Christ, you guys are too kind. Why is he so good at everything? Dude, I remember we were at this murder mystery type dinner. Do you remember this?

Justin Donald: Yes.

Jon Vroman: And the game was just like, could you get the money and figure out who committed the murder or whatever? And of course I was like, Justin’s going to win this. And by the end of it, he had the most money. I was like, I’m not shocked.

Hal Elrod: He beats us at pickleball. He beat us at volleyball.

Jon Vroman: Pickleball, doesn’t matter. And I start to tell myself a story. He got started earlier, it must be like, and then we pick up a new sport at the same time and he’s like pro level within six months.

Justin Donald: Oh, far from it. But my personality is I love getting into new things that I have no business doing or knowing. And I like to figure it out. I like to crack the code. Like that is fun for me. And I can obsess about that until I get what I would consider competent or good or a place where I’m excelling at it. And I’ll put in the hours, I’ll put in the time, because I just don’t like being okay at things. So, I’m like, I will double down. I’m committed. If I’m going to do it, I’m committed.

Hal Elrod: Yeah, I like to be mediocre at a lot of things. Real lot of things, relatively mediocre.

Jon Vroman: Dude, well, something I want to say about you, Hal, in your journey is, I’ve watched you over the years is dude, so your book skyrockets. You write a whole series of books. You’re so good at partnering with people and…

Justin Donald: And generous in your partnerships.

Jon Vroman: And generous in your partnerships. Too generous oftentimes in your partnerships. But what you did is you came up with a brilliant concept. You’re such a good storyteller. You’re an amazing speaker. You’re so passionate whenever you have an idea, not just one that’s your own or that you profit from, but just anything that you believe in. You’re such an advocate. You’re always bringing new products to our band meetings. You’re like, you got to try this, got to read this book, you got to, whatever, it’s so good to see.

But then over the years, what I also watched you do was not keep biting for more where you could have, and I was like, man, if he put 80 hours a week into this and like this could be maybe a hundred times bigger, but you very quickly were like, I know what my priorities are. I know. So, you didn’t just talk about putting family first, but I’ve watched you do it with discipline over the years and you’ve said no to a lot as a result of your choices. That’s been really admirable to see, man, and yet you’re still innovating, you’re still doing cool things. The Miracle Morning app is killing it, and I think you just continue to check in and you make really good decisions for you and your family and your future and it’s awesome. And people love you. Like, people are just…

Justin Donald: Die-hard fans.

Jon Vroman: Yeah, massive. Die hard. Your fan base is crazy. It’s kind of fun going out with you because I don’t get recognized ever. But going out with you, you do. One of my favorites was meeting at lunch at True Food and the woman’s like telling us about the Miracle Morning Book, but she doesn’t realize it’s Hal. It was so great. She’s pitching the book to us. And then I said something like, “Do you ever want to meet the author?” And it was really cool. And I’m like, I just pointed across the table. She had a freak-out moment, which was really, really cool. But that’s been fun, man, to watch you have all this fame, and yet, not get a big head about it in some ways. I mean, other ways, you’re a complete egomaniac. I’m just joking, I’m sorry. But it’s awesome, dude. You’re such a great ambassador of your own brand. It’s really, really cool.

Hal Elrod: Thank you. I appreciate that. One thing that came up for when you were saying that is, the whole getting the kids ready for school in the morning and then taking them to school and then getting off at three to pick them up. Like, that’s hard. It’s hard for me to cut out three hours of workday where I’m like, ah, I have so many things to do and not enough time to do them, and I really need these three hours. But all right, and then, so it’s both challenging and then it’s also like affirming, like I’m doing it. It’s hard, but I go to bed at night being like, I did the right thing today. I put family first.

Justin Donald: Well, you’ve got to invest your time and energy somewhere. And if you’re investing in one place, you’re probably not in the other. So, what’s the most valuable place to invest it? Most certainly your family.

Hal Elrod: And let me say this, Jon, going back to our first phone call, something that I always remember that you said. You said, at the end of my life, I’m paraphrasing of course, but you said, “At the end of my life, when I look back, my kids aren’t going to remember, nor am I how many books I sold or how many mortgage payments I made or how much money I made. My kids are going to remember how much time I spent with them, how many things I showed up to.” Like, that was the game changer.

And I realized that, Justin, like to your point, when you’re like, “I’m traveling the world and I’m doing it for you, sweetie,” and she said, “No, you’re not. You already got us to a level of success where the bills are paid. That’s all we need.” And now, there’s this limitless success that as an entrepreneur, you’re like, oh, I can scale bigger. I could go, I could help more people, I could go on and on and on. And it is just this decision of like, yeah, what matters most? And I need to make sure I’m, yes, making money and paying the bills, but I’ve got to cap the success, if you will, at whatever level is needed to be with my family, be with my kids, support my wife, so on and so forth.

Justin Donald: There’s an analogy that really just sticks out in my mind that I heard from a friend and mentor who basically said, you’re always juggling at least two balls, except that one of them is a glass ball and one of them is a rubber ball. And the glass ball is your family.

Hal Elrod: Ah, I love that.

Justin Donald: And the rubber ball is your business or your professional life, and that rubber ball, you can drop it, it’ll bounce. If you don’t pick it up in time, it will bounce smaller. Eventually, it will stop bouncing, but you could always pick it back up. You can always restart it. You can always pivot. You can always do something different. It’s always there. If you drop the glass ball, your family, and it shatters, well, it’s shattered, right? It’s not like that one bounces. There are certain things that just you can’t put back together. And that has just been ingrained in my mind and I just want to make sure that I’m honoring that glass ball.

So, if I have the decision here, it’s like, well, if I don’t do this, then maybe I make less money, right? So, maybe I should invest in this or invest time or resources into this. But if I’m doing that at the expense of the family, well, then they suffer. So, where would I rather make that investment? And that was even the first pivot of trying to give family the time that they deserve and scheduling them first. In my mind, it was, wow, I’m probably going to lose a lot of business. It’s probably going to have a material impact if I’m cutting out the hours I’m spending on it, if I’m starting later, if I’m ending earlier, I’m not doing anything on weekends, I’m carving out the family. So, it’s like, man, okay, let me wrap my mind around that. Okay, yeah, that’s still the better move. I would rather invest in my family knowing I’m going to lose over here. But the reality is I haven’t lost over here. And you can make the argument it’s gotten better, because I have guardrails, I have boundaries. I’ve had to get other people involved that do it better than I did it, right? And so, it’s like the business and the wealth and all the things are growing when I’m doing less, and I’m less focused on it because I’m putting more time towards my family.

Jon Vroman: Dude, that is one of the biggest ideas of this community is if you choose to put family first and you ask the question, how might my business grow while putting family first? Then you’re forced to look at leverage, who not how, how to scale systems and processes, and likely, your business will grow faster and better that if you decided to just work your ass off 80 hours a week…

Justin Donald: That’s right.

Jon Vroman: You’re just working with more intelligence and giving your business a chance to succeed beyond you, which is what I got from Mike Michalowicz was this like, don’t take a vacation from your business, give your business a vacation from you. And like all those concepts come by first saying, how do I get more time with my family? And then it forces this 10x is better than 2x concept.

Justin Donald: I had the privilege of spending a week with Richard Branson on Necker Island, and I learned a ton. I have notes upon notes upon notes from that time. But the thing that stands out more than anything, because this is a guy who is successfully running over 500 companies. Like, how is that humanly possible? I was at my wits end with my much smaller number of companies, right? So, I’m like, how is he doing this? And so, I asked, how do you do that? How do you scale? How do you manage all the people and all the things? And his response just, I think about it all the time. It’s, he said, “I hire the best people and I get out of the building as fast as humanly possible.”

Hal Elrod: Nice, yeah.

Justin Donald: And just hearing that over and over, it’s like, yeah, it’s about the people. It’s about the systems. And I am most likely the greatest bottleneck.

Hal Elrod: Yeah, me too.

Justin Donald: The success of my own organization. And sometimes, ego kind of gets in the way of that and it’s like, well, but it’s mine. I need to be there. I need to make these decisions. And to double check and say, well, do you really? Are you the best or most qualified person to make those decisions? Are you actually world class at these specific activities? Why not get someone in there that is world class at those specific activities? And there are a lot of activities that I am not world class at, that I need world-class people around me.

Jon Vroman: Well, you two are definitely world class at recruiting Front Row Dads members. So, let’s talk about that for a moment, how you do that. I’m curious how you guys talk about Front Row Dads. What do your text messages sound like when you’ve generated interest from people that you’ve brought in? Because again, it’s quite a few from both of you, and I know it’s a bit different style maybe and there’s different ways that we’ve done it, but I often hear from guys in our community, they’re like, I love this. I have some buddies. I don’t quite know how to talk about this. There’s something that’s missing from them of being able to sell a concept that they’re already subscribed to. You two are great salespeople anyway. You’re great at sharing stories, you’re great at speaking, you’re great at training and getting a point across. Not everybody I don’t think has that natural ability, but maybe we can share something that could be educational.

Justin Donald: Well, I think number one, it’s got to come from the heart. It’s got to be real authentic stories of impact. In my case, for me, personally, right, I’ll share the impact I’ve had. Sometimes there are times where what that person needs, maybe it was someone else in the community that had that, so I’ll loop someone else into the story of impact, but some of it, it’s like the value prop. It’s like, well, how much are you spending on these other things? Well, for the dollars here and access to the group that you have, like that trade-off, that’s the best value out there. Why would you not? Do you desire to be better as a husband? Do you desire to be better as a father? Well, what else could you do? There are a lot of things you could do, but what else could you do that with the consistency and the brotherhood and the community and the learning opportunities that are available, like what else could you do that would trump that? And it’s a small investment for the return that you get.

Jon Vroman: Yeah. I want to double down on this for a minute because it’s like, what’s the most important thing to do as a dad to be successful in that space? Be there for your kids, right? Show up for your kids. Love your kids. No question. Do you need Front Row Dads to be a great dad? No, let’s be honest, right? You don’t need it. You need to be there for your children. You need to love them. You need to engage, you need to model great behavior for your kids.

Outside of that, okay, so let’s say somebody that’s table stakes for somebody, they’re like, well, of course, I’m going to do that. Of course, I’m going to show up and love my kids, and I want to be even better. Like, what are my blind spots? What am I missing? What are some other– like outside of that, you brought up a great point. What could you possibly do that would have a bigger impact on your success in that role than a community? I would argue, it’s not going to be a book. It’s not going to be a Google search. It’s not going to be a conversation with ChatGPT. It is not going to be stumbling upon the seven fun activities on a Saturday morning with your kids. It is likely going to be, and I would argue this, is community. It is the five people that you hang out with. It is the men who see you, know you, and can target their feedback for you, the blind spot revealing and then the modeling in such powerful ways.

Justin Donald: It’s easy to justify spending the money on a business community or a business event where you’re going to see that growth, right? And that’s almost like a no-brainer. I mean, once someone gets into the mastermind space or the community space, the peer group space, the mentorship space, like it’s a given. If you’re not in it, it makes practical sense. And then once you’re in it, you’re like, oh, my goodness, the returns are infinite, right? And so, if you’re going to do that for business, like that’s important, but nothing’s more important than how you show up for your family. Like that should trump the business one.

And the other thing I find people get hung up on is, well, I’m so busy I can’t make everything. And that’s where I really like to lay out. And I do this in our community too. It’s, we don’t have to be maximalist here. We don’t have to go to everything to get the value. You can pick and choose the things that will add the most value and go to those, but it’s likely one conversation, one event, one mindset shift, one conversation, one person, one new relationship, one strategy. It’s one thing that totally changes the playing field. And so, it’s not that you have to go to everything, it’s that you just have to commit to some things and then take those some things and implement them.

Jon Vroman: I love that concept that you can’t know everything, but you can know something and that one thing can change everything.

Justin Donald: That’s right.

Jon Vroman: That’s as simple as that, yeah.

Hal Elrod: Well, it’s the few things that came up in this conversation that I remember, Jon, when you said, my kids aren’t going to remember how many mortgage payments I made or how many books I sold or how much money I made, they’re going to remember how much time, I was like, oh, my gosh, total transformation in the mindset, right? Like, it’s these, I think, I probably shared maybe three, four, five monumental life-changing paradigm shifts that have occurred since I joined Front Row Dads. It’s not, here’s a hundred and here’s everything from every event, right? Like, I probably have hundreds of notes from the last however many, almost 10 years of events. I don’t remember 99% of them, right? But the 1% I remember have completely fundamentally changed how I show up as a family man.

Justin Donald: Well, and my activity of just going through all my past notes because I had to throw everything away, and so, I scanned in all my notes and I kind of consolidated and I owe you guys an email so you can see it all.

Hal Elrod: Yeah, you should have sent it months ago, dude.

Justin Donald: Yeah. Well, I’ve got it. It’s done. But what is interesting, it’s like, I’ll go through this and it’s like, wow, that’s cool. I’ve implemented these things. Like, I’m better here. And it’s like, oh, these ones I meant to, I didn’t. I probably need to own up to that. Like, let’s commit to these ones too. But it was a great walk down memory lane of 10 years. And for years, I did both retreats every single year. And so, there is a compound effect and it was cool seeing how many shifts I had made. And it wasn’t that I made all the shifts, it was that I picked like the top three from an event. And that’s why I did, at the end of every event, it’s like, all right, what are my three big takeaways because I can’t implement everything? Can I implement at least one of the three? Can I strive to implement all three of the top three? And that in itself was a game changer and continues to be a game changer.

Jon Vroman: Yeah. Hal, you send some text messages that have prompted some incredible engagement from some really cool people. When you send a text message to somebody, I mean, I wish I could just pull one up right now and read what you’ve sent, but what goes into a message that you’ll send to somebody? Or like, talk to me about your philosophy of telling people about Front Row Dads.

Hal Elrod: It would’ve been nice if you did a little more prep. No, I mean, I’m trying to remember what I say. I know that one of the first things I do is I just usually ask, have you heard of Front Row Dads? Or are you familiar with Front Row Dads? And if they say no, I just immediately send them the URL. And that’s one thing, your website, the FrontRowDads.com website is so good. It’s so aesthetically pleasing. It’s so functional. It does a great job communicating what Front Row Dads is, why it’s valuable, all the things, right?

Jon Vroman: Lots of testimonials.

Hal Elrod: Testimonials, yeah, and the video clips of the events. You’re like, you watch one of those, you’re like, how could I not go to this? Like, I would do anything to be in that room. So, I always send the URL and I’d say, “Hey,” I go, “Spend five minutes today looking through FrontRowDads.com and let me know. It’s the most influential group I’ve ever been a part of as a dad. It helps you be a better husband and a father.” It’s just a little paragraph of like– and I don’t have a script. It’s just whatever comes to me in that moment of why I think they should look into enjoying Front Row Dads. And then in 24 hours, if I haven’t heard, I’ll say, let me know what you think and if I haven’t heard, I’ll ping them.

Jon Vroman: So, that comes very natural to you. But I think that for a lot of people, it wouldn’t. Have you ever heard of Front Row Dads? So simple, right? Spend five minutes. It’s palatable. People can do that, right? And it’s directive. You’re like, spend five minutes on this website and this is the most impactful group I’ve ever been a part of. So, it’s like you give them somewhere to go. You give them your personal testimony. You’ve asked a question in there, and then you’re actually maybe asking them for them to follow up with you, or that maybe you’ll follow up with them, whatever that might be. So, there’s some level of maybe accountability that comes along with it.

Hal Elrod: Yeah. Accountability. We ask them to check in and then if they don’t check in, you follow up. I’ll just like or emphasize the text that I put saying, “Hey, here’s the website. Let me know what you think.”

Jon Vroman: Did you bring Levesque in to us? I can’t remember. I feel like you did.

Hal Elrod: I’m pretty sure I did.

Jon Vroman: I think you did.

Hal Elrod: Yeah.

Jon Vroman: I think you did.

Hal Elrod: I mean, it definitely wasn’t Justin. No, I think that I did.

Jon Vroman: I feel like you did.

Hal Elrod: And then, yeah, I was just thinking about, you mentioned…

Jon Vroman: You guys deserve credit for a couple people, both of you, because equal friends.

Hal Elrod: But Ed Sexton just came to mind. I told Ed about it. Ed is, his son John and my son are best friends. And I don’t know how long ago, six months ago, a year ago, I invited Ed. Oh, it was to the Austin event. And Ed came and I followed up, “Hey, what’d you think?” And he was like, “I was blown away.” Now, he’s one of the most active, engaged members. I told you he leads his band. They did a four-hour band meeting at his house the other day.

Justin Donald: Wow.

Hal Elrod: Yeah. And he’s like always telling me how I’m helping. I realize these guys could use help in other areas. And I’m like, he’s just pouring in and actively like, how can I serve my band members? But just an example of like the ripple effect of I brought in this one person, and now, and this may have happened with or without me bringing him to Front Row Dads, but like, he is the one that got us to join the YMCA. And then him and his son started running, they started running a mile and then measuring their mile and trying to beat their time. And I haven’t run a mile in years. And so, I was like, “Halsten, do you want to join him and run a mile?” He’s like, “Sure.” And so, we both ran a mile. And now, every time we go to YMCA, we try to beat the previous mile time. It’s like, that’s a game changer. And it’s a game changer for my son to be valuing working out and physical activity where it’s normalized for him at such a young age. He’s going to think, he’s like, this is part of his identity now. I work out, I exercise. And he’s only 12, yeah.

Jon Vroman: So cool. Yeah, I dig it. What have I not asked about or talked about that would be important to celebrate 500 episodes on the podcast and coming up on next year, but coming up on our 10-year anniversary. So, nearly a decade of live events, 500 episodes, many band meetings, lots of texts, phone calls, conversations amongst our core group as a band. What have I not talked about that would be important, if anything? Have I missed the mark anywhere?

Hal Elrod: Justin, you can go first.

Justin Donald: Yes, thank you. I appreciate that. It’s so generous.

Hal Elrod: Yeah, that one, I’ll let you go first and second. You can take first. You answer it twice.

Justin Donald: Well, you know me well enough. I think we’ve done a great job covering things. I think it’s hard to put into words the quality of men that are in the community. I don’t think we can even hold a candle to describe how great these men are. Like, we’ve talked about the impact that we’ve seen. There’s so much impact that we will never see, right? And we can make the argument that the impact we never see is actually greater than any impact we’ve ever seen.

So, I think from that standpoint, it’s just, talk about this a lot with Lifestyle Investors that we don’t just want to be a community. We want to create a movement. And I really believe Front Row Dads is creating a movement. It’s taking culturally being a dad or being the dumb dad or having the dumb dad jokes, and even television programming around it has really dumbed down the dad role. And I feel like we’re helping to reinvent who that father, who that leader, who that husband that is championing their wife and family is.

So, I feel like culturally, we’re making some big shifts and it is a movement. We are bringing the masculinity back to how fathers should show up, but not just pure masculinity with vulnerability that it’s okay to cry, it’s okay to open up, it’s okay to share struggles. It’s hard to put into words the impact of that, but I mean, I think that is very palpable.

Hal Elrod: I got a good one, came up for me. The impact on business, and initially, when Front Row Dads started, you were like, no business talk. That was like a rule. No business talk. And now, you’re like, wait, that’s part of the man. And so, you can talk business with one of our pillars, but you think about this, just as a man, if you and your wife are in conflict, if you are fighting, if she is angry at you or vice versa, at least for me, personally, and I think it’s true for a lot of men, nothing affects my mental health more than that. When my wife and I are fighting, nothing impacts my mental health more than that. And it makes it hard to get anything done because you’ve got this friction. She’s like, I’m going to make it hard for you because you hurt me, or whatever. And so, that for me, I realized that when my wife is happy and thriving and feeling loved and filled up, I do better at work because it frees up that mental and emotional space. And so, that to me is a side benefit of Front Row Dads, is that by helping you thrive as a husband and father, you then have, ah, you just feel good. You feel light, you feel liberated to then focus on your business and thrive in your business without your wife complaining that you’re always working and you’re never home because you actually are putting them first.

Justin Donald: In all areas, it’s not even just business. It’s certainly business, but I mean, I feel like we compartmentalize a lot of things as men. Women tend to flow through things a lot more. It’s kind of one ecosystem and we’re like, well, let’s close this room and let’s open this room. But there’s a certain degree that you can’t fully do that, right? So, to be in a good space, it impacts everything. It impacts your health, it impacts, I mean, everything.

Jon Vroman: And thinking about questions to close this out, and these are high level kind of summary type questions. So, gut reaction to the question of in your experience now of having been a dad for a number of years, you’re a little bit further down the road than some other men who might be listening to this who are just starting their families. A question that comes up is, if there’s one thing to get right as a dad, in your experience now, what is that thing to get right?

Hal Elrod: I think it’s to live your life in the way you want your kids to live their lives. It’s to model behavior. You see that meme that goes around that if you’re not pursuing your dreams, right, if you’re not living courageously, how can you expect your kids to pursue their dreams and like, oh, my dad just worked at the same job that he hated and he’d, whatever. And then, of course, modeling integrity, modeling all of the things., and I see that in my kids as they’re older. My daughter’s 15 now, all about to be 16. My son is 12, he’d be 13. And there are so many times where I was so worried over the years, like I’m trying to teach my daughter this value that I teach in speeches, and I know it’s so important that I talk about it all over the world and I need her to get it, most importantly. And she’s like, “Dad, no.” And she’s resisting.

And then the other day, my wife was kind of complaining about something and my daughter said to her what I have said a million times, right? She’s like, “Mom, you can’t change it. Why are you being upset over something? It doesn’t do any good to be so angry about it, right?” And I’m like, oh.

Justin Donald: Sinking in. Sinking in.

Hal Elrod: So, right, that is it. I mean, your kids model who you are more than what you say. And I think that for me, I’ve aged a lot of years, I’ve caused myself so much stress of being like, I have to have control. Like, I’ve got to get all the things inside and then instill all the values in them. And then if they’re not getting the value right away, I’m like, oh, they didn’t get it. And then I feel like I’m failing as a father. And again, just when you zoom out, like not being so attached to every moment in terms of what your kids do or don’t do and what they pick up and how they respond and just zooming out and look, like, “Hey, I’m just going to be the best version of myself. I’m going to wake up every day and dedicate time to following my path, my journey, my purpose, my dreams. I’m going to live with integrity. I’m going to love–” right? It’s this bigger picture of like, I’m just going to be the best version of myself and then be that for my kids and love on them and then kind of let the chips fall where they may.

I think I lived in a lot of fear of like, oh, what if the chips don’t fall where I think they should for my kids because I didn’t do the right things and teach them the right things? And yeah, man, just be the person that you want your kids to be.

Jon Vroman: I almost feel that, for me, personally, I had this be the best version of myself mentality early on, but it wasn’t in front of them. It was like me trying to be the best version of myself in business away from home. And then as I matured, it was how do I be the best version of myself so they could witness it so that I’m there. So, I’ve been in pursuit of the best version of me. I used to say, if I write the book, that’ll be the best gift to my kids. If I do this speech and I provide the money, it’ll be the best gift. And that still exists as truth. There’s truth in that. There’s just more truth for me in wanting, like I used to do the Miracle Morning before they’d wake up, and now, I think, can they catch me doing my Miracle Morning routine? Can they catch me meditating? Can they catch me reading? Can they catch me doing yoga or working out? Can they see me, right, rather than leaving home and going, being with friends? Can I invite friends over and let them watch me be in community? So, yes, so good, Hal. Thank you.

Hal Elrod: That’s good.

Jon Vroman: Justin, what about for you, man?

Justin Donald: Yeah, I look at kind of like four or five key things that we need to do as fathers for our kids. And for me, my faith is really important. So, number one on our list is that I’m teaching my daughter about our faith and that she is always loved, that God loves her, that she has meaning, she belongs. She’s exactly who she should be. So, like one of it is faith and the byproduct of that is kind of like self-image. I could separate that and say, hey, I want to make sure that I’m sharing and loving in a way that she just always knows that she belongs and she always knows that she is loved because I want her to have a strong self-image. I want her to just show up to every situation knowing that there are people in her life that love her and that even if she’s upset with mom and dad, that God loves her, so that.

Secondly would be peer group, that it is my job and my responsibility to make sure that the people that she is surrounding herself with are people that are going to help build her up and help her make good choices, be a good influence on her, that she’s showing up in a way that she’s influencing them positively. Number three is healthy choices, right? So, working out, activities, healthy eating, all those things, like teach that at a young age so she can have a vibrant life full of health, many years, God willing.

And then, number four, really just like the family unit, like the importance of family that we just show up for each other, we do what it takes for family. So, I think instilling those things, like those four or five, it could delineate into five or four different areas. That to me is my primary focus as a dad. And then some of that will kind of spin off as a husband, but I think there are a few other things that would need to take place on the husband side of things.

Jon Vroman: It’s a way better answer than Hal’s.

Justin Donald: Thank you. Thank you.

Hal Elrod: That’s a lot of what I was thinking.

Justin Donald: Appreciate that.

Jon Vroman: Well, on that sarcastic comment. Guys, thank you so much for being willing to sit down and take a walk down memory lane with me. I love it. Thank you so much for what you’ve done for Front Row Dads. I expect twice as much in the future.

Hal Elrod: We need better incentives, dude.

Jon Vroman: I hope we have 500 more interviews in the future. I hope that we’re fortunate enough to be around in 10 more years to be having these conversations and celebrating what happened when our kids went from 10 to 20, right, or 15 to 25. That’s kind of cool to think about. It’ll be fun to be thinking into the future of like having conversations around our adult kids and then looking back on some of these things and maybe talking to them. Maybe they’ll be on the podcast and reflecting on some of these things that we talked about.

Justin Donald: Oh, heck, yeah.

Hal Elrod: Nice.

Jon Vroman: It’s really cool to think about all that. So, thanks for being in the journey and I’m just– I said this before, but I feel like I won the friend lottery.

Hal Elrod: Ditto, man.

Justin Donald: Me too.

Jon Vroman: Love you, guys.

Justin Donald: Love you as well.

Jon Vroman: That’s a wrap.