A Winning Playbook for Financial Success with NFL LB, Chris Board – EP 168

Interview with Chris Board

A Winning Playbook for Financial Success with NFL LB, Chris Board

Featured on This Episode: Chris Board

✅ What he does: Chris Board is a real estate investor and an American football linebacker currently playing for the New England Patriots in the National Football League (NFL). Chris played college football at North Dakota State and was part of a highly successful team, winning four FCS Division 1 Championships with NDSU. His professional career took a significant step forward when he joined the NFL. Most recently, as of the 2023 season, Chris was signed by the New England Patriots as an unrestricted free agent from Detroit. He aspires to become a full-time investor as soon as he retires from playing professional football.

💬 Words of wisdom: “I’ve been very blessed to have earned this amount of money. So, I didn’t want to be stupid and blow it away.” – Chris Board

🔎 Where to find Chris Board: Instagram | X

Key Takeaways with Chris Board

• Becoming a pro athlete
• Avoiding the usual mistakes of pro athletes
• The TLI Mastermind experience
• Investing in index funds and single-family homes
• Decoding an NFL paycheck
• Ditching the “Keeping Up with the Joneses” mindset
• Learning from the legendary Bill Belichick

Patriots LB Chris Board on Joining the Lifestyle Investor Mastermind

Free Strategy Session 

The Lifestyle Investor Insider

Chris Board Tweetables

Resources

• Chris Board on Instagram | X
• Dan Campbell
• Derrick Henry
• Tom Brady

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Read the Full Transcript with Chris Board

Justin Donald: All right. Chris, I’m so excited to have you here. Welcome to the Lifestyle Investor Podcast.

Chris Board: Thank you for having me on, Justin.

Justin Donald: Yeah. It’s just so cool. I’ve been looking forward to our episode and, I mean, I always look forward to interviewing members of the Lifestyle Investor Mastermind but I have this absolute love and passion for football and NFL, and I just am so excited about our time here today because you’re living what for me as a child was a dream and this is your profession. So, I’m excited to kind of dig into that a little bit.

Chris Board: Yeah. I’m excited as well. It should be a good one.

Justin Donald: So, how did you kind of figure out that football was your sport? I mean, I feel like growing up, you know, most of us play a whole bunch of different sports. And as an athlete, I got to imagine you’re probably good at a lot of different things. How did you figure out football was for you?

Chris Board: Actually, I was introduced to the sport when I was about eight years old through an uncle. He kind of brought me out there and from then on I’ve been playing. So, for like 20-plus years, I’ve been playing. I also ran track a little bit in high school, which I enjoyed but it kind of became apparent that football was a sport that I’d probably take to the next level. So, that’s what I kind of pursued.

Justin Donald: Oh, that’s so cool. And did you think early on that you’d make it because percentage-wise, I mean, you’re talking about such a small percentage of people that actually make it to professional sports, and football being one of the toughest?

Chris Board: Yeah. It’s like 0.001% of the population that actually makes it but I knew I’d have a shot in college. So, I know I have a shot and have an opportunity and I was fortunate and blessed enough to get the opportunity after college. And then been playing for six years now.

Justin Donald: Oh, it’s so cool. Now, has your position changed from like high school to college to NFL?

Chris Board: Yeah. Originally, I started off as a running back. That was like growing up I played running back and then I made the transition to safety in high school. And I did that until my junior year in college and then I switched to linebacker. So, it’s a little bit of a transition for sure.

Justin Donald: And how do you figure out like what you’re best suited for? Like, if you’re a running back, how would you even say, “Hey, maybe I should flip to the defensive side of the ball?”

Chris Board: Yeah. It wasn’t really my choice. Coach kind of told me that a safety would probably suit me better and then eventually my safeties coach told me a linebacker would probably suit me better. So, that transition, it really wasn’t my choice at all.

Justin Donald: Okay. Well, that makes it a lot easier, I suppose.

Chris Board: Yeah.

Justin Donald: And so, what type of weight training did you have to do to prepare yourself to be able to play at the highest level?

Chris Board: Weight training? It’s pretty much year-round. You do a lot of lifting, running, not too much like distance running and more so sprinting and like power training and stuff like that but that’s kind of the gist of kind of what you have to do.

Justin Donald: That’s so cool. And one of the things that I’m excited to talk about today, obviously, besides your football career, is that you are one of the few people that I have met in professional sports that is thinking beyond just the sport. You’re thinking about, “Hey, how do I invest my money in a wise way that yields fruit, that gives passive income, that gets a good return?” Because a lot of athletes, I think, underestimate how long they’ll play and overestimate how much they’ll make or how much they’ll have after taxes or I think the average, we’re talking off show here, but I think the average is around three years for a professional athlete in the NFL. And so, how early did you start thinking about investing?

Chris Board: How early? Actually, I thought about investing before I actually got into the NFL because I heard the horror stories, kind of like what you alluded to, just how most athletes going broke like three years after playing. That kind of terrified me, to be honest with you. So, I thought about it kind of coming in and I kind of had the idea that if I was fortunate and blessed enough to get enough money, that I would invest that money as soon as I possibly could.

Justin Donald: I love it. I just think that’s great. And I definitely want to dive down into that investment rabbit hole. Before we do, though, you’ve played for some incredible teams, some incredible coaches, some very successful coaches. You started off with the Ravens and played there most of your career. You played for a season with the Lions. And you played right now this season with the Patriots. And so, you’ve got a new coach that has really come on to the scene crushing it in Dan Campbell but you have a couple of mainstays and having John Harbaugh and having Bill Belichick, two of the most successful coaches, and obviously Bill being the most successful NFL coach. And I’m just curious what some of the different coaching styles are between the three of these men.

Chris Board: Okay. So, I’ve been to all three. Kind of Bill, he’s very accomplished. He’s definitely a very stoic guy. And in comparison to him and Campbell, Campbell is kind of the opposite. He’s kind of the more fiery guy and kind of gets in your face a little bit. And then Harbaugh, he’s kind of in between both of them if I had to guess. He’s established as well. So, if I could put them all three in and grade, Harbaugh is like the in-between both of them. Dan is kind of like the fiery guy and Bill being like the stoic kind of no-nonsense type of man.

Justin Donald: Yeah. I could see that. And one of the things that I feel like just in watching Dan Campbell is that guy just looks like he’s a beast. Like, he has to be the most intimidating guy because he’s a big guy, isn’t he?

Chris Board: He’s huge. He’s like 6’6. He’s still built like he could play right now.

Justin Donald: Man. Okay. So, as a linebacker in the NFL, I mean, the thing you’re doing is you’re going after people. You’re hitting people. That has to take a massive toll on your body. I’m sure there are right ways to tackle and wrong ways to tackle but your job is to get as many tackles as possible. And then on special teams, what you’re doing a lot more of your, you know, an elite special teams player. I’m curious, what goes into that and how does one get selected for special teams?

Chris Board: As far as special teams, you don’t really get selected for it. You get selected to really play defense and hopefully, you can contribute in the kicking game. So, I kind of came in playing defense with them, knowing that I have the ability to play in the kicking game. But yeah, as far as my position, yeah, I do hit people quite a bit. It’s in my job description but I definitely enjoy it. It takes a toll on my body but at the same time, it’s something that I love doing. So, yeah.

Justin Donald: That’s awesome. Well, I can tell, you know, it’s funny, we were talking about Dan Campbell and his size but any of us normal folk, you are a massive guy and I can assure everyone I would not want to be tackled by you. So, yeah, I can see that you pack a punch here. So, I’m curious, though, are there players that on the field are like just behemoths to you? You know, like Dan is just a monstrous guy. Are there players on the field with that I’m imagining like Derrick Henry is probably bigger than most running backs and probably harder to take down. Are there a number of people like him that you basically think through, “We’ve got to be a little more strategic on this takedown?”

Chris Board: Yeah, for sure. Like you said, Derrick Henry is probably 6’3, maybe 250, 260. I mean, I’m not a small guy myself but there are a lot of guys, especially on the offensive line, the defensive line that are just ginormous. They’re human beings but yeah.

Justin Donald: I love it. I love it. Yeah. Well, I’m just really enjoying learning more about your sport and your craft and your profession because in my mind, I’ve got this one way that it is and it’s probably nowhere close to that because it’s just I have no experience. My mom wouldn’t let me play football. It’s the one sport I wanted to play. It was the one sport my mom would not let me play. She worried about me getting injured, and probably rightfully so because I got injured in all kinds of other sports, right? But it’s really fun kind of living vicariously through you. And I chatted with you before that I got a chance to watch your game on Sunday and it was really cool just being able to root for you and know that we’ve got a powerhouse in our mastermind that is just elite at the professional sport of football. So, congratulations on the success you’ve had and being part of that 0.001% and actually making it.

But I’m really excited to spend some time talking about your investment path, where you are, where you’re going, what excites you. And maybe even before we get into that, you’re a young guy. You’re 28 years old. Maybe we don’t call that young necessarily in the NFL anymore. I still think you’re pretty darn young but for the Lifestyle Investor Mastermind, you’re one of the younger members. And it was really cool seeing someone that is so eager to learn and grow in their acumen, their investment acumen and education. And I’m just curious why the Lifestyle Investor Mastermind. Why did you join? What I guess inspired you to become a member?

Chris Board: What inspired me? Originally, I was introduced, first of all, to your book through Nick Pastermack. We share an accountant. I love the book. And then I kind of inquired about the group. He made that happen for me. But just as far as just why I wanted to join the group, I really wanted to be around a lot of very intelligent investors, a lot of people that really have different niches in various aspects. And I just really want to learn. Like you said, I’m a seeker of knowledge, a seeker of just finding ways to invest my money and invest in cash-flowing assets. So, that’s really like the main two reasons. Of course, the deals, that’s an added bonus as well but just to mainly learn and realize like various ways that I can save on taxes or other things.

Justin Donald: I love it. I just think it’s great that you have come in and become such a student of everything. We love Nick Pastermack. I think that guy is just incredible. I hope that everyone gets a chance to meet him and one of these days I’ll have him on my podcast because he is brilliant, he’s successful, he’s kind, he’s really great at teaching all the things that he’s good at from being a franchise owner to being an operator and he lives life. You know, him and his family do a lot of cool stuff. So, I think it’s cool that you knew him. And when I heard about you, I was like, “All right. I’m going to do some homework.” I’m going to learn about you and dig in. If Nick says you’re a guy that I should consider here for the group, then I’m totally interested. And so, the more I learned about you and the more I saw how hungry you were and the fact that you already were starting investing, I just thought that that was really cool. And it’s an honor to help support you along your way to getting to the level that you want to be as an investor. That’s so cool. So, what was your first investment? How did you get started in the investment world? And what are some of the different investments you’ve made now?

Chris Board: My first investment was in an index fund and a few stocks after my rookie year, and then from there invested into a single-family home, which I lived in. And as I went to a new team, I later rented that out. And then in ‘21, I bought a triplex and I kind of began to scale from there.

Justin Donald: I love it. So, I mean, you’re actively involved in doing this. I know you’re looking at a very big multifamily commercial unit right now. And so, I love seeing your desire to learn and grow in this space. I’m curious what some of the takeaways that you’ve had since joining the group.

Chris Board: The takeaway is just that there are a lot of very smart people in the group and, two, just everybody has like differing opinions on certain things, which I kind of love. You kind of get the back and forth between each member which is needed. Also, just love the amount of information that’s in the group that is kind of at your disposal. And I just love all the deals that are kind of brought into the different of like videos and stuff that we have access to.

Justin Donald: I love it. Well, our deal from this past week is with a world-class sponsor that is responsible for doing investments with the biggest billionaires, biggest family offices out there, single family offices. And it’s really special that we get a chance to have access to these guys because the who’s who are the ones that are using them. And generally, people like us that are not hanging out with the billionaire class, we don’t have access to these deals. So, it’s cool to have someone come in and to be able to get access to this deal and learn about it from such a top-notch sponsor. I love that you’re getting access to this and learning about it. You made a comment earlier, though, that I thought was really important, and I’d love to have you elaborate more on it because one of the first things you said besides the deals is that you were interested in learning tax strategy. And I think that that’s so smart. Especially for a high-income earning professional, the higher income-earning you are, likely the more the government is taking from you. You’re at a higher tax rate, right? And so, is that an area that you feel like you’ve been intentional with early on, or is that something that you’ve really kind of gained more of an understanding and education with through the mastermind?

Chris Board: I kind of started early on being like intentional, just finding ways to minimize my tax amount. As you know, I kind of get taxed in every state I play.

Justin Donald: That’s right.

Chris Board: So, I’m kind of getting killed taxwise. So, it’d be advantageous for me to just learn and find ways to minimize that.

Justin Donald: Yeah. Now, I think another interesting thing that we could discuss is even how you earn income. So, like a football contract, you know, when you first get drafted, there’s going to be one type of contract. Then after that, you’re going to sign new contracts. It might be multi-year deals. Often, though, it’s single-year deals. And then the way that they’re structured varies. I’d be curious to know what in terms of like the structuring of your deal you’re willing to share and just so that we can understand the way that income flows to you.

Chris Board: Yeah. So, I get W-2 income and I get bonuses as well throughout the deal. There are certain dates where those bonuses kick in or if you meet certain requirements. So, you get a certain amount of tackles or like a certain amount of sacks or a certain amount of passing yards, you hit those certain bonuses. So, yeah, you get those and as well as other incentives throughout the course of if you have a two-year deal or three-year deal or even a one-year deal.

Justin Donald: And then I’m imagining postseason is going to have different pay, different comp, different bonuses. You make the postseason, there’s a certain bump. You make the playoffs or you win your division, maybe there’s additional comp. Super Bowl, you know, making it, winning it, all that, right?

Chris Board: For sure. Yeah. As far as the playoffs, you get paid. The first round is a decent amount and then second round is a little bit more than the division championship. That’s a little bit more. Then a Super Bowl’s obviously a lot more. Yeah. It’s definitely that we scale the farther you go.

Justin Donald: Yeah. And are you paid just over the time that you play? So, is your comp based on the number of games that you’re playing or is it spread out or do you have that as a choice?

Chris Board: Yeah. We don’t really have a choice in that, but we get paid out over a 36-week period.

Justin Donald: Okay. All right. And from a budgeting standpoint, part of what you have to do is say, “All right. Well, my base salary is this. I’m projecting that I’m going to get these certain bonuses.” But how do you allocate from an investment standpoint? Do you try to use some of the base to be able to pay down payments on some of your rental properties? Or do you have like a certain amount where you say, “Hey, at this point in time, 100% of bonus incentive or commissions is going to go towards this,” or, “When I hit my tackle bonus, then all this commission is going to go towards my next rental property?” Like, how do you look at structuring the investment off of the income that you make?

Chris Board: Yeah. So, when I get like a paycheck or some money coming in, I take probably 80% or most of it and I really just put it away and really try to allocate it and figure out where exactly I’m going to put this money, whether it be like an alternative investment or real estate or whatever. But, yeah, I really just put the money away initially, and then I kind of figure out and decide where that money is actually going.

Justin Donald: Well, that’s impressive if you’re doing that with 80% of your income. So, would you say that you’re pretty disciplined at living beneath your means? And if that’s the case, is that typical or is that atypical for your profession?

Chris Board: That is not typical in my profession.

Justin Donald: I knew you were going to say that.

Chris Board: Not at all. They have a saying of “keeping up with the Joneses.” So, that’s definitely everybody’s mindset in my profession. But that’s really kind of been… I’ve really lived and tried to stay like tried to be very frugal with my money, if you will.

Justin Donald: And where do you get that from? Is that instilled from your parents? Is that from mentors? Is that from other players that you know are doing that right and your modeling from them?

Chris Board: I was just naturally am that way. Yeah, I’ve been very blessed and fortunate to have been given or have earned this amount of money. So, I didn’t want to be stupid with my money and then kind of blow it away.

Justin Donald: Yeah. That’s great. I love it. And it is from my experience, also very atypical. And I think one of the most common regrets that you hear from athletes, professional athletes, when they’re no longer in that sport is, and by the way, a lot of them have had some really cool business opportunities since, but a lot of them haven’t. And that’s not a given. I think most people don’t think about that second career. But I think that as a general rule, it’s hard sometimes to recognize that it could be a shorter season of life and we’ve got to kind of act accordingly with the finances, right? And another thing that you hear a lot about are kind of the financial advisors or wealth managers or whoever it is, and maybe it’s not those individuals, but people that really prey upon athletes that are making a lot of money. Is this something that you see? Is this something that’s consistent with what you’ve experienced?

Chris Board: Yeah, for sure. I’ve also been very hesitant on really getting involved with financial advisors because of, like you said, there have been like a lot of cases where they preyed on athletes because they make so much money, they come into the money so fast. I’ve definitely been hesitant as far as that but that people that I bounce ideas off of and kind of get feedback and have mentors and stuff like that. So, I’ve been very blessed and fortunate just to have people like that in my corner.

Justin Donald: That’s amazing. So, who are kind of like your mentors, advisors, or people that you do bounce ideas off of? Like, who’s your core group? Like, for me, I’ve got a handful of friends that like anytime I’ve got something really important and depending on what it is, maybe I have different niches that I might go with. But I’ve got a core group of friends that I like to bounce ideas off of because I think that collectively they just have way more wisdom and way more discernment than I have and I want that outside perspective. So, who’s that in your life?

Chris Board: Like you said, friends, mentors that I’ve worked with in real estate, kind of just those people or guys that I kind of bounce ideas off, like you said.

Justin Donald: I love it. So, what do you think is the next season of professional life for you? Do you think that, I mean, obviously you’ll probably play football as long as you’re strong, able, healthy, but do you envision yourself getting into business at some point or do you think that you’ll become an investor full-time or maybe part entrepreneur, part investor? Have you thought much about that?

Chris Board: Yeah. That’s the plan to be an investor full-time after I’m done playing. I don’t know when that time will be but I’ve been really intentional about being good with my money thus far and kind of just setting up cash flowing like investments and investing in cash-flowing assets to really set myself up. So, when I do decide to walk away from the game, I can do so comfortably, and that I can do it whenever I want to.

Justin Donald: Well, I think it’s always better that you could do it on your terms, right? A lot of people are forced out, whether it be due to injury or due to age or due to performance, due to just younger, stronger, hungrier people coming into the league every single year. And so, yeah, I think it’s great to be able to do it on your terms and say, “Hey, from a cash flow standpoint, I’m good. I don’t need the NFL but I want to be here and I want to keep playing,” or, “I don’t need it and I’m ready to be done.” And I just think it’s great that it’s on your terms so I love that you’re focused on that. Now, in an ideal world, are you like Tom Brady? You want to play until you’re 45 or is that a little bit too long? I’m curious, like where do you feel like you’re getting beyond your prime?

Chris Board: Yeah, don’t want to play until I’m 45. That’s definitely a little too long. I mean, he plays quarterback so he can do that but I play linebacker, which is a little more physical. So, it’s definitely not in my cards to play that long. But definitely, I don’t really have a per se number, but I do have a really benchmark or a feeling when I know when I’ll probably be done playing.

Justin Donald: That’s cool. And would you say that in a perfect world like do you enjoy kind of having the opportunity to play under different coaches and different teams? Would you prefer to have a longer-term deal like, for example, at the end of the season, you’re going to have the opportunity to sign another contract and there’s probably part of you that is like, “Hey, it’d be nice to just stay right here, stay put. I’m established here.” I get that you probably go wherever the best contract is or maybe whatever is the longest term or the best pay or whatever it is. But are you enjoying the variety of multiple teams, multiple coaches, multiple experiences? Or would you rather find a place that you can be longer term with that city and with that team?

Chris Board: Yeah. I’d rather be somewhere long term and I feel like I’ve found that here and that’s why I signed here for a two-year deal. I mean, after that, I don’t really know but as of right now, I’m glad I’m here and ready to stay for sure.

Justin Donald: That’s awesome. Well, it’s also good to find that home that you want to stay where you’ve got one of the winningest coaches, one of the most successful NFL masterminds out there, which is great. And you guys have assembled quite the team. I mean, one of the cool things that you see with Bill Belichick is that he is able to always recruit some amazing talent. And he often, I mean, I think that he finds incredible deals or late-season pickups and he’s just been able to assemble some pretty killer teams because I think he thinks about the game of football differently and the strategy of it and position players differently. And I’ve got to imagine that you’ve experienced quite a different perspective from the standpoint of like a chessboard.

Chris Board: For sure. Yeah. Bill’s definitely a very intelligent guy. He’s been around the game for a long time so he knows a lot. He’s seen a lot. He kind of just knows what to expect. But yeah, I can’t even speak highly enough. He’s a savant, if you will, but he’s very, very smart. A very smart guy.

Justin Donald: I love it. Yeah. I think sometimes the greatest minds often are the quietest. They don’t have to say the most. Their results show. You don’t have to run your mouth at all. Your results just show. So, I love it. So, you’re in the Massachusetts area right now. How far do you live from the stadium?

Chris Board: About 10 minutes.

Justin Donald: Okay. Nice and easy. And then home, though, for you is South Florida, right? I think you maybe moved there when you were younger. Do you have family there?

Chris Board: I do not have family there but I train there every off-season. So, it just made sense to get a house there.

Justin Donald: I like it. And so, in a perfect world, in the off-season, like, is that it? Is that where you want to live? Are you there by choice or is there somewhere else that you would love to live?

Chris Board: It was by choice. Yeah. I prefer to stay there.

Justin Donald: Yeah, that’s cool. Well, I love South Florida. I’ve had a lot of fun there. I’ve got a bunch of friends there so I try to make it out at least once a year but I also was telling you when we were off air how much I love Austin. I just think it’s such a cool place here. I know you’ve been here a few times. I just think that we are in such a really cool season of the life cycle of the city as we’re attracting so many entrepreneurs and so many tech-minded people and so many investors. It’s really just a neat melting pot of people and expertise and innovation. It’s really something special. But I know South Florida that’s happening as well.

Chris Board: For sure. Yeah. I’m definitely loving the weather. You can’t beat that. And then, yeah, I just love it down to South Florida as well. Austin is nice for sure.

Justin Donald: That’s cool. So, what do you do for fun? Like, NFL is over. It’s the off-season. You’re training but not as hard. What’s fun for you? What do you like to do, Chris?

Chris Board: In my off time, I just spend time managing my investments, looking for new opportunities. Yeah, just kind of hanging out. I draw a little bit. Just finding different things to kind of dabble in, in my free time.

Justin Donald: I love it. The artist in you wants to paint a masterpiece in this investment world, and I think that that is so cool. Do you do much travel while in the off-season or do you like just being there? Or do you like South Florida enough that you don’t need to go anywhere?

Chris Board: No, I travel quite a bit from basically January to April. So, I travel from… Especially that first month, I spend most of the time traveling and kind of exploring and seeing new people like experiencing new cultures and stuff like that.

Justin Donald: I love it. So, what is one of the things that you’re most looking forward to once the football season wraps up and you have a little bit more time in regards to Lifestyle Investor Mastermind? Is there anything that’s jumping out that you’re excited to learn or people you’re excited to meet?

Chris Board: Travel. Travel, like we just said. I’m definitely excited to do that. If I could go to Italy, maybe South America again. That was definitely a good time. So, just to travel mainly, continue to learn like new languages and just experience new things.

Justin Donald: That’s cool. Well, we just took a trip to the Republic of Georgia and spent some time in Istanbul but we’re blown away by this part of the world that most people have never been to, they don’t know about. And it was fascinating. And so, as we’re there and we brought our COO and our CIO and our CTO, and so we’re all just having such a great time. And one of the things that we talked about for the Lifestyle Investor Mastermind is incorporating more travel, more trips, more culture, more experiences. And so, we’re in the process of trying to lock down our very first trip officially, which should be in May of next year. And I have not told this to anyone. So, this is the first time I’m even uttering this but I figure what perfect time to mention it when I’m talking to a guy that loves to travel. And the off-season will be a couple of months into it so, yeah, we’ll have some fun and there’s a ton of cool experiences.

But I just got to say, I have thoroughly enjoyed getting to know you and hearing your story and seeing the success you’ve had and just your ability to look beyond just the profession that you have and look into investing and take action and do some of the things and have the foresight to join a community and a group like the Lifestyle Investor Mastermind, where you can rub elbows with more like-minded people, with people playing the game of life in business and wealth creation at a level that excites and inspires you. And I just want to say that I’m honored that you’d be on the show and honored to have you as a member in our community. So, thank you.

Chris Board: Thank you as well. I truly appreciate you giving me the opportunity, one, to be in the group and then as well be on your show. I’ve definitely enjoyed myself as well and I definitely look forward to speaking with you again.

Justin Donald: I love it. Well, I love ending every episode with a challenge, with a question, and I’m going to end this one the same way. So, I love asking our listeners one simple question, and that’s this: What is one step you can take today to move towards financial freedom and move towards the life that you desire, one that’s on your terms, not a life by default, but rather a life by design. It looks like Chris Board is doing a fantastic job with that and I hope his story has the ability to inspire some sort of action for you in doing the same thing. So, thanks again, Chris. And to all of our listeners, to all of you watching, excited to see you all next week for our next episode.